Episode 284 (Jay Heck: Part 1)Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.Jay Heck: [00:00:38] I wrestled and labored with whether to take a three week vacation with my family. The story I was telling myself is that I'm not worthy of it. I just kept saying, God, here's what I'm hearing in my head, what do you have to say? And then God just supernaturally brought other people to confirm, that's exactly what you're supposed to do, like you have to do this. And that three weeks changed my life forever. Cemented myself in the identity as a beloved son, who can have joy with my father, and it also set the precedent for my family that our dad brings good things. It totally changed the trajectory of our family.Kiva Zaugg: [00:01:21] Hi, guys, welcome back to DadAwesome. Today is episode 284 and my dad is having a conversation with Jay Heck.Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:30] So, Jay Heck is the founder and leader of Being Sons. He's out of San Antonio, Texas. I've been hearing incredible things about Jay, his podcast, his videos, his e-book, his experiences, events that he's doing for dads and sons, dads and daughters. I've been here in amazing, amazing reports for a couple of years now. We finally got a chance to connect and we went long forum. So this is a two part episode, this is the first half, about 30 minutes is this week and then another 30 minutes next week. So buckle up. Welcome to DadAwesome, Episode 284 with Jay Heck. Coming at ya from San Antonio. Welcome to DadAwesome.Jay Heck: [00:02:16] I am super glad to be here. This is awesome.Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:19] Well, it's one of those conversations that probably, like, there's multiple reasons we could have had this chat two years ago because I've just heard amazing things about the work that you're leading in your area and beyond. My daughter and I are already making plans to come in and be a part of one of your First Bloom dad, daughter events. I mean, there's so many reasons we could have chatted a long time ago, but I'm thankful to have you on today. And I thought, Jay, just as a way to start, could we talk about it's a story that you titled Jump, and it was about your dad in a moment of conversation about him quitting his job. Can we go there to start with? Is that okay?Jay Heck: [00:02:53] Yeah. Great. Great story.Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:54] Yeah, yeah. Tell us the story.Jay Heck: [00:02:56] My dad, our home was not a Christian home growing up. We were religious. Went to church quite a bit, but in terms of taking risks on God, it wasn't even a category for us. So when I was in high school, independently, my dad and I, we had really grown apart. You know, he had lacked a lot of fathering skills and he wasn't able to pass them on. But he did a great job. You know, looking back, there's amazing restoration in that story. But I think one of the really significant moments in our story is the one that you're describing here. So, independently of one another, I came to know the Lord when I was out of town with a friend who drug me to a Young Life meeting one night and independently of of our home life, my dad had been introduced to some Christian businessmen's organization and he got saved. So he got saved over there, and I didn't know. I got saved over here, nobody else knew. And the Lord began giving him a, just a, a reversal of his way of thinking in almost every category. And he really began to live a sold out life for Jesus. And at that time, he was trapped in a job that he did not like very much, but we were making good money. You know, it's the typical, typical Western civilization trap, the American dream trap, where he was making money, he had a mortgage, he had all these things that he needed to pay for and for years that was actually a source of his unhappiness, there was very little risk in his life. And he had moved up in his organization to be the person through whom new technologies are introduced so that the big corporation goes to him and says, Hey, we've got some money from these other cash cows that we have, what should we invest in next? And so anyway, this along comes this gadget and he thought that his company should invest wholeheartedly in it. And so he made a big presentation, did all the research, flew all over the world, and he created this presentation with them. And they said, no, we're really not interested. And he was really disheartened by that. But, you know, he came home and he just kept feeling like the Lord was saying, Why don't you do something you've never done? Why don't you take a risk? Now he knew, my dad's always been a man of great integrity, and so he wasn't going to, you know, breach any contract. So he eventually, after weeks of wrestling with it, he and I were driving somewhere, I don't know, a sporting goods store or something like that and he just began to pour his heart out to me and say, here's the deal, I've only got this much money in savings. I could cash out all my stocks in this company and we could barely make it. And this is this is what I have on my heart to do. And I think that if I go to the company that I pitched this to, they would say, we bless you and you can take off and we're not the least bit interested in it, so go do what you want. And he said to me, What do you think I should do? And I don't really remember what year. I know I wrote about this in the blog, so I probably tried, I probably remembered for for the sake of the blog, but I was probably about 14 or 15 or 16 years old, and my relationship with my dad was still, there was still friction there. And I remember, in a way, my response to his question was humbly, in awe that he would ask me. Of all people, I didn't think that you would want to ask me this. And then the second thing was, I wanted to dare him. I'd never seen him do anything dangerous in his life. And I was, I wanted to know that my father had something like this in him. And the third reason was, well, if my dad risks something on God and God comes through for him, maybe God's safe for me to risk on. Now, at the time, at 16 years old, I could not have told you any of those motives behind my saying what I did, but I responded to him. You know, he essentially said, So what do you think I should do? And I said, Well, you're not going to be a chicken and not do it, are you? And, like, that was it. I mean, my dad went, he had the conversation, he, you know, signed the agreements and he cashed in all of his stock and went to my mom and said, hey, here's what I want to do. I want to start my own company. I want to do something nobody's ever done before in a new way. And anyway, yeah, I can't say that it all turned out fantastic, but it totally changed the trajectory of his life and my life. And I got to see my dad do one of the most important things that I think any son or daughter can see their dads do, and that's take a risk on God.Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:19] Yes. And the benefit of that deposit, now, with the work you're leading of, you had to do the same and in not a tradition, not as simple as this plus this plus this. You've had all kinds of detours in your stories, as well. But you wrote this, and we'll link out to the whole blog post because you have some great kind of takeaways from that story, but you wrote, He had just gotten a raise, I believe, before this opportunity. And but "money does not equal wealth." That's what you wrote it. "And a stable job does not equal security. What he craved was a frontier to subdue an adventure to live, what he feared was not being able to feed his family and also having no significance. All men fear these, right." And as you kind of play that out, I think all of us have these opposing pressures. And and there's some of us right now, that like actually we need to hear that kind of arrogant teenage what, you be chicken? You're going to be chicken and not take this? But I mean, my oldest is nine, she's not going to respond with that kind of. But I think my girls have benefited from from, you know, my wife and I hitting the road, going all into the work we're leading now. Your kids for sure benefit, because I've heard your son reflect on it, in your podcast. The the parallels, can you, kind of challenge all of us, a step further, on playing it safe versus us going after the frontier?Jay Heck: [00:09:40] It's such an important question. Well, God has Fathered me, and that's a term that I that I throw out quite frequently. And in the in the tribe that I run with, it's one that we try practicing as much as we can. Just the worldview change, that God's actually Fathering us and initiating us in the uninitiated places. I was challenged by a very good man that God has used to Father me to ask my kids these three questions, first is just simply how am I doing as a dad? Two, what's one thing I do really well as your dad? And three, what's one area that I can improve upon? And I was very scared to ask my kids those questions, especially the very first time, afraid of what they'd say. And I was shocked that when I asked my son that question for the very first time, he was probably of around 13, 13, 14. I said, How am I doing as a dad? And he said, he said, Yeah, you're doing well. And I said, Well, what's one thing I do well? And this was this is where the answer comes in, he said, Well, Dad, you you have stories to tell. Now, that shocked me because when I sit around the dinner table and I tell stories and I give wisdom and stuff like that, you know, my kids roll their eyes and blah, blah, blah. So that shocked me. And I said, okay, what do you mean by that? He said, Well, dad, I show up every day in school, and I sit around the lunch table with all my friends and all their dads do is come home at the end of every day and watch TV and they may take one little vacation fishing or golfing every year. But you like, you go backpacking, you do things that you've never done before. You're always challenging yourself. You're always finding a way to make your heart come alive. And, and he said, and then he also, he's asked me something else that was at a different conversation, but it was related to it. He said, Dad, would you promise me that when you old, when you get older, you'll be spry? And I was like, Well, what do you mean by that? He said, I just don't want you to lose your excitement about life. You know? And I have realized that the health of my heart and my son's lens for seeing God and what it looks like to be a believer, to be a Christian, to in in more accurately, to be a child of a loving, adventurous father means that I have to take risks. And my kids go to a Christian school and that's probably the most heartbreaking thing that I now see is the lens that I am able to see through is that whether kids go to a Christian school or they go to church or anything like that, if a parent, if a set of parents are not taking risks on God and they're not inviting their kids to know, here's what we're risking on God, here's how God has to come through, that child will grow up with a very, very warped view of Christianity. In the end, there's a really good chance that they'll reject it.Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:54] Wow. How about the third question? You might not remember from that conversation, but just over the years, the conversations about asking the third question of what you, how you can improve. Can you think of some of how he responded there?Jay Heck: [00:13:08] Yeah. Yeah. First time I asked him that question, he said, Well, dad, when you're in a bad mood, everybody in the house knows it and they're afraid. And I said, Yeah, you're right. Thank you. Thank you for being honest with me. My daughter, and I have no doubt my kids have got multiple. That's why in kindness to myself, I only ask what's one thing I can do to improve? It would be a long list. But my daughter, I did not appreciate her, just common social anxiety. I didn't appreciate it even though she had voiced it before. And when I asked my daughter that question, she said, Well, dad, when we go to stores, we'll go into an aisle and we'll be looking at something and you'll walk out of the aisle to the next aisle. And then I look up and my dad's not there and I feel unsafe and I've told you about that and you continue to do it. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, hon. So, the two very different things, but I'm glad I asked the question because it gave me a very clear target, a very clear vision of what my kids needed from me, and without a vision, we cast off restraint. So, I was able to actually work on those things, you know.Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:33] So helpful. And we can those three questions, as long as there are child's like over three years old, we can start asking, we can start asking those. Jay Heck: [00:14:41] Oh my gosh. Oh yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:43] You wrote this about the anger, so I just want to go after that a little bit. "You said newly married with my first born on the way, I was terrified of failing. The fear manifested through overworking and unpredictable fits of anger. It wasn't until I realized I hated who I'd become that God gave me permission or God I gave God permission to take the reins." The part about unpredictable fits of anger, I've seen that in myself. These like moments, outbursts or these, like, where is that swelling coming from of anger? How have you found, like, what are some of the, knowing is the first thing, so hearing from your son that helps identify. But what about the healing process of not not perfection, but stepping into a better place of not showing those unpredictable fits of anger? How's that going?Jay Heck: [00:15:37] Better For sure. For sure. And, you know, looking back, I mean, even today, I still I still battle anger, but anger is always a secondary emotion. There's always something behind it. You know, there's always a statement behind it. It could be that we're sad. It could be that we're lonely. It could be, it's usually because we're afraid and sad and loneliness can be attached to that, so. So at some point, I in being curious about it, and that has actually been a source that's actually evidence of wisdom, is that we can we can recognize the anger. And I used to shame myself for it. I used to, you know, lock myself out of relationship with with my family members. Now, what I've learned to do, which you can only do with a God that you're coming to believe is kind, is that you say, God, here's what I'm feeling, and I'm going to be honest with you about it. I'm even tempted to be really ashamed. I'm even tempted to not come to You right now. So, I'm taking a big risk just to give you my attention and just to come before You, because I feel like I should be hiding from You. I feel like you're probably really disappointed. You're really ashamed of me. But here's where I am. And what's behind this? Like, God, what, I have tried to stop for years, and it's not working. I need You to come into this, and I need You to help me get healed. How does this even work? And this is me having a conversation with God, and I'll say I'll look around, and even in my Christian friends, every one of us is wrestling with this, God. All of us are. And some of them will admit it and some of them won't. So what's this about?Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:54] Mmmm. What do you think, is there the order, because we talked about taking the leap, the jump and would we be willing to go after the frontier versus playing it safe? But then you said you said in this statement around there was actually fear of failing that manifested itself through overworking and these these unpredictable fits of anger.Jay Heck: [00:18:11] Yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:12] Is understanding what's behind an actually experiencing healing? Is that the first step, do you think, for most guys, or is the first step you actually have to take the leap? And then like, which order? Does tha question make sense?Jay Heck: [00:18:26] Yeah, it's a great question. First, is you just have to be aware of what's going on. Truth be told, my journey, as a son, from God's perspective, has been since before the foundations of the earth when He, you know, even before He knit me together in my mother's womb. Like, He's always had a plan. He's always had, in His heart, throughout the course of of history, to create me, to create you, to create every one of you who's listening to this, to be the object of His affection, to be the object of His love, and to bring us into maturity. That's always been His goal. Now, I've only seen that as part of the plan because my worldview was very, me-centric, up until probably about late thirties, early forties, something like that and even with some portions of a Christian worldview. So, the position that my heart finds itself in now, which is, I'm so I'm so deeply grateful to God for his rescue, came first by Him giving me the wisdom to simply stop running and observe, this is not working. Because I went for years just trying something new. I try a little harder or I'd quit that thing, you know, or I'd say, Well, that relationship's not working, I'll just ditch it and I'll find another relationship, you know? And I thought, now, the common variable in every one of these perceived failures is me. And that didn't surprise me. I would heap on the shame and heap on the contempt. You know, I had been all my life. But I was like, if Christianity really is good, if it's a rescue, then there, then it has to be the answer to what I'm feeling. But I'm not seeing that as the fruit in most men that I know and in most Christian organizations, I just don't see many changed men. I mean, I can hear the stories of guys who were drug addicts, and they're no longer drug addicts, but the men who used to be really angry, who are now soft and tender, but also powerful and strong, like there aren't many men that I can look at and say, I want to be that guy right there. And I just began to be curious, is it possible for me to be that And what, you know, God, I can't do it, I've tried. So how does that work? So I think first there has to be authenticity with God, just a deep humility and honesty that this is not working, I've tried it. The second, is that you begin to get clarity that, yeah, things are not what they've seem. The story that you're telling yourself is not the real story. And I say that there is a particular kind of man that I feared that I was becoming, and I needed to hear God say, that's not the story I've invited you into. Right. Like, that was the rescue. I couldn't even, I would not have had the strength, without the hope that God first had to give me that what you're experiencing is not your destination. That's not what I have for you. And, and then, you know, once, and that really is, it's really identity. So, in short, I would say, okay, if I were to describe myself in a few words, it would be stupid, it would be loser, it would be failure, it would be these other things. And that's what's driving the anger. I don't care how good a guy you are or how much money you have, how beautiful your wife is. It doesn't matter how perfect your life appears if you're believing those very, very simple I am statements and those underlie everything, you're always going to be angry. And it's always going to come up in those moments that you feel like your failure is going to hurt yourself or it's going to hurt those closest to you. And so you never know when those are going to flash. You never know. And so when God says, you're not stupid. This is actually what I have to say, you're not a failure. This is actually what I've created you for. This is not the story that you've been living. This is actually, it's actually been about my lifelong, lifelong pursuit of your heart. And then it takes this great risk to believe that that's the real story and not the one that you've been believing. And The only way that I could begin embracing those hopes and those truths that God spoke over me, was I had to take risks. I had to say, well, okay, if You say that I don't have to worry about money, then that means I should be okay to take a vacation with my family, even though for the last 15 years, I always felt that that was irresponsible. It was immature. If I take, if I take money out of my savings account, then I'm going to fail my family someday. And even though my family never went on vacations growing up, like I actually have to choose to break a cycle. And one of the and I'll just say this is the last thing, is that one of the most defining moments and life changing moments for me was when I wrestled and labored with whether to take a two, no, a three week vacation with my family. The story I was telling myself is that I'm not worthy of it. And God, I just kept saying, God, here's what I'm hearing in my head, what do you have to say? And then God just supernaturally brought other people to confirm, that's exactly what you're supposed to do. Like, you have to do this. And that three weeks changed my life forever. Cemented myself in the identity as a beloved son who can have joy with my Father. And it also set the precedent for my family that our Dad brings good things. It totally changed the trajectory of our family. And now we're about to go for another three week vacation up to Yellowstone and back through Utah, yeah, at the end of the summer. And again, I don't feel like I have the money in the bank to do it, but what it feels like is I can't, when I think I can't afford to do it, God says, Son, you can't afford not to do it. I have new things for you to discover, new truths, that need to go to the 18 inches from your head down into your heart. This is just a part of your initiation.Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:01] Yeah. And that, in the direction I wanted to kind of explore next, is this quote, T"rue wealth comes only from things that can't be taken from you." And about your trip to Australia about, what was that, seven, eight years ago with your son? Is that about right?Jay Heck: [00:26:19] Yeah, I think he was 14. So, six or seven. Yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:23] Yeah. And I'm going to hit, like, this story from two angles. But first, because I'm just so intrigued. North Queensland and I love Australia, I've been there twice, my brother's there right now. So, saving to go back and that's one of those trips that'll be, you can't take that from us,as a family. I'm taking my, my family, my girls there. But you described Darren as a Navy SEAL in the Kingdom Ministry of Father, Child Adventures. And I was like, wow, there's so many parts of that like description, I was like, I want I want to know Darren, Come on. What are some things you've learned from Darren? I know you spent that time with him and his wife when you were there. But just, Yeah, what things have you learned from him that would be applicable to myself and the other dads?Jay Heck: [00:27:05] Wow. Well, he runs a fathering ministry. And first and foremost, he grew up not having a good, loving father that knew how to impart truth to him. And now he knows he is the beloved son of God. How do you get there? I mean, that's just a conversation that I think every man needs to be asking, you just sit around a campfire, smoke a cigar, drink a lemonade or a beer, and just say, tell me your story. How have you come to believe that you're the beloved of God? And he has done that. And out of the joy of his rescue, out of his brokenness has come His glory. And I just, I mean, it's my story as well. No one could have written my story and I wouldn't trade my story with anybody else. Same thing with Darren's. And I'm sure, Jeff, the same thing with you. If we, you know, dove into your story, the reason you're at podcast 280, whatever it is, is because you've got both arms in the air and you're screaming, you're celebrating. You want the whole world to know some truth that at some point was not your truth. Okay, So, Darren has got four sons. And he is one of the best, most intentional, loving fathers I know. And not all of his sons are fully on board with that. What do you do with that? When we believe that if this, then that. If I'm a good father, then that. And he helped make sense of something, because I was actually in ministry, professional ministry before I had to take a break, before God invited me out for a dozen years into the private sector. I was in ministry and I was trying to do it to make God happy with me. You know, I thought, if I'm in ministry full time, then I will no longer be angry and everything will be okay. And God actually used it to highlight the fact that that's just not the solution. It's your identity, you don't know who you are. So let's get you out of this thing that actually hides what you fear most. Let's put you out into a very exposing field where the wind and you're, you know, you're subject to all the elements. And and let's let's train you how to live out of the truth and he has been such a light to me. He's one of the men who is more full of joy than any that I know. He's one of the best, most loving, tender husbands I've ever known. He, even though his sons have doubts about God and Christianity, they cannot help but be drawn into the compelling vision because they'll go off and get married. His sons are getting married and their families may think they want to explore other options beside Christianity, but they they can't help but deny that their mom and dad have the best, most loving marriage of anybody. They can't deny that their dad is one of the best dads. They can't deny that their parents have a loving, open home for them to go to when they need it, you know, and they can't say that of their peers. So as much as the enemy may be trying to, you know, throw a wrench in that that engine, it's his faithfulness and his trust in God that's so deeply compelling and powerful. So when I say he's a Navy SEAL, this is what I mean. Navy SEALs go under cover of darkness and they're able to pull off impossible things with amazing coordination and, Australia, for the most part, they don't believe in Jesus. You listen to the polls, they don't believe that fathers are important at all in the lives of their children, especially their daughters. And Darren comes in with the approach that wisdom will teach us, and will teach you as a father how to be a hero in your kid's life. But you have to anchor wisdom in something or someone. And so as a Navy SEAL, he says, I'm going to go and I'm going to talk about this guy called Solomon in the, in the Bible, and I'm going to talk about this man named Jesus, who, whether you believe he's the Savior of the world or not, he's had greater historical impact to make the world a better place than anybody else. So we're just going to use those two men as examples of authentic manhood. And, you know, he gets there buy in and first and foremost, because he has something that they want. Two, because he's so genuinely loving, they'll believe him for a period of time, because God is always most attractive to those who are hungry, thirsty and in need and they all show up because they're hungry, thirsty in a need. And by the end of it, a huge majority of them are saying, I want you to tell me more about this Jesus that you're talking about. You know? And he's just got one of the most incredible marriages and the reason that she's one of the most lovely women I've ever met is because he has learned to love her well. She has been able to blossom. I'm like, okay. I just, let me sit at your feet. Teach me. Teach me what you know.Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:20] Thank you so much for joining us, this week, for the first half of my conversation with Jay Heck. All the show notes, the quotes and the transcripts and links to, to Being Sons, their ministry, their events are all going to be found at, do you remember the website for that?Kiva Zaugg: [00:33:38] dadawesome.org/284.Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:39] Nice work. Nice work. And next week we're going to go into, Jay unpacking the experience in Australia, these ten days of what his son took away and how it changed his relationship with his son, doing a ten day adventure like that. And then we go into a bunch of other topics as well, so make sure to tune back in next week. Guys, Thank you for being DadAwesome. Praying for you guys. Cheering for you. Thanks for being a part of this movement. And man, just don't back down. Keep pursuing the hearts of your kids. Can you say you guys are awesome?Kiva Zaugg: [00:34:09] You guys are awesome.