Episode 285 (Jay Heck: Part 2)Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.Jay Heck: [00:00:39] And masculinity bestows masculinity. There's just something that rubs off, that makes him want to be a part of a larger story and a larger fellowship of men. My son's wheels were turning and he was just going, I'm being invited to do something extraordinary. It opened up a new season in our lives together, where we both got to learn how to be sons together. We both got to be curious before God. We got to begin going to God and saying, God, we're feeling this way and if you're a Father and you've got wisdom and you've got resources to unlock for us, and you want to teach us what a good father is, what do you want us to know?Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:19] This is episode 285 of DadAwesome and we have part two, the second half of my conversation with Jay Heck. Now, if the guys missed last week's, episode 284, would it be a good idea to go back and hit pause?Kiva Zaugg: [00:01:33] Yes. Hit pause and go back and listen to that episode.Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:37] The first half, right?Kiva Zaugg: [00:01:38] First half.Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:38] Okay. You heard it from my oldest daughter, don't listen to this part of the conversation without the set up, the back story. So go back and listen to last week's. The second half of my conversation with Jay Heck, the founder of Being Sons. Buckle up. We're going to jump right into him talking about this experience, this 10 day experience with his son in Australia. So, I'm so glad you're listening today, this is episode 285, the second half of my conversation with...Kiva Zaugg: [00:02:04] Jay Heck.Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:14] The trip, though, for your son, 14 years old, to get these ten days or so? Roughly ten days, is that right?Jay Heck: [00:02:20] Yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:21] You guys Adventured?Jay Heck: [00:02:22] Yeah. Yeah, about that.Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:23] What was, what were a few of the like, I wouldn't trade that moment for the world? Were there are few moments you could, you'd be willing to share that happened because of the risk and because of the investment?Jay Heck: [00:02:33] Oh, yeah. Well, first and foremost, even deciding to go on that trip, my son is a huge adventurer, now. Back then, no. Very, my daughter was actually much more courageous than what my son was at that age. And so there was a timidity in him about things that I had an option, I had two options of how I was going to handle that. What I did for years was I pressured him. Grow up, take risks, Don't, don't, don't embarrass me, reflect well on me. And then the other one was to invite him to be a partner with me in decisions. And so when the invitation came up to go to Australia, instead of telling him this is what we're going to do, I invited him into it. I said, Hey, here's an option, I think it could be fun. I kind of masked my excitement. I kind of masked the idea that I really felt like this is what we're supposed to do. Hey, let's pray about this. I think this could be really cool for you and me. And God was actually, of course, He was in it, preparing my son because my son had a bearded dragon. And bearded dragons are very popular in Australia. And he had mentioned, months before, the only place in the world I would ever want to go and travel to is Australia, because they've got bearded dragons. I can go see them in the wild, right. So okay, God had kind of been setting that up. So we prayed and I just gave him a lot of latitude and pretended to not be that interested in the answer. And he came back and said, Yeah, let's do it. And so at that point, my son, I mean, trying to get him to try new things was very hard. He wouldn't try any new foods. He was very afraid of heights. He was pretty good with people. But going on, just getting on a plane with my son and doing international travel like that was an adventure all in itself. I mean, seriously, if you just got on a plane and circled the world and ended up back at the airport that you were in, like that, you know, I could just tell my son was deeply honored to just be invited. Like, you would invest that money in me? You would invest that time in me? You would want to be with me for that prolonged period of time? Like, all of those were disruptive truths that he had to embrace. And what I see in my work with dads and in my own kids is that if you do something as a father, that's really wild, it will give your kids, in that moment, the courage to believe maybe I am my dad's beloved. Like, maybe, like maybe they really are crazy about me. Maybe the story that I've been telling myself about my dad's not true. Because what he just did, I can't figure it out. Like, why would he do this? And if you can allow God to set a table for a few days or even for a few hours, at times, where they just feel like, Wow, I must be something really, really special. It opens a whole new world for them to try things that they never would have before and to ask questions. So my son tried foods in Australia that he would never have tried ever in his life. It actually changed all of his food eating habits, which was a source of frustration at every meal. Could I have ever thought that? No. My son abseiled like 150 feet into a hole in the ground in Australia that had a bunch of brown snakes, the most dangerous snake in the world. They know it was a brown snake den. Would he ever have done that with just me? No. Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:52] Wait, what did, make sure I catch this right, repelled into that hole? How did he get to that?Jay Heck: [00:06:56] Yeah. We all did. Like all these fathers and sons like, yeah, just they call it abseiling.Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:01] Abseiling. Okay. Okay.Jay Heck: [00:07:01] Yeah. So it was just it was the longest rappel I think I've ever done. And we did it, you know? And he was afraid of heights. My my son was always afraid of heights, but I think he was open to trying new things. One is because of the disruptive invitation that I brought him there. Second is that he's around all these fathers and sons, and masculinity bestows masculinity. There's just something that rubs off that makes him want to be a part of a larger story and a larger fellowship of men. He didn't want to miss out, and I didn't have to put any pressure on him. The Holy Spirit just, you know, I could just tell my son's wheels were turning and he was just going, I'm being invited to do something extraordinary. My dad's not pressuring me. I would really be silly to not take advantage of this opportunity. So new foods, new relationships, new experiences.Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:55] Yeah.Jay Heck: [00:07:56] Something broke in him where he was, from that point on, open to new experiences, trying new things. And it opened up a new season in our lives together where we both got to learn how to be sons together. We both got to be curious before God. We got to begin going to God and saying, God, we're feeling this way, and if you're a Father and you've got wisdom and you've got resources to unlock for us, and you want to teach us what a good father is, what do you want us to know? Where do you want us to go? What do you want us to do? What do you want us to do with this money?Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:36] Yeah.Jay Heck: [00:08:37] You know, it was, it was just awesome. Totally life changing.Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:41] There's two things I just want to pull out of there. One, is the the dialogue prayer versus monologue. You're not just praying to God saying, help this, help this, help this, like you're actually expectant, more for a dialogue, which is again, what a good father doesn't just, a bad father would just yell constantly at their son, all the words are or you yell at them. But a dialogue, a loving father and just to make sure everyone listening can go get, you got like a, it's like a four or five page free resource on your website. So, 'm going make sure that's linked out called I believe it's called the Dialogue, here it is, How To Dialogue With Jesus. So, so would you set that up just a little further that I did, though, that guys know this is the essence of it and this is why it's so important as a as a loved Son of God?Jay Heck: [00:09:32] Yes. When you name a healthy father son relationship, in any movie, in your story, in human history, where a father and a son did not have an open dialogue with one another. And yet somehow in in Christendom, and I'm not bashing anybody, we have this way of honoring God that's very human in its roots, very broken, very religious, very fearful, where we are afraid to step boldly into the presence of God and tell him what our needs are and to ask for it. And one of those needs is, I need you to talk to me. I need, I need a Guide all the days of my life. Thank you for your your word. It's perfect. We need it. And yet there are certain moments in my story where I need to know that you love me. You know, I mean, Jesus had the entire Scripture probably memorized and better understood than any human being in all of human history. Okay, well, if that's all that He needed, then why did God break all the rules at the River Jordan and say to Him, You are my beloved son, out loud so everybody could hear. I mean, if He needed it, I need it. And there are times where I just need to hear Him confirm that. I think every one of us needs to hear him confirm that and it's just another one of those things that you, if you look at the fruit of a life where you are really good at reading scripture, memorizing Scripture, applying Scripture as best you can, but if you believe that you have a father that you call out to, that you cry out to, and you just have to be okay with him not talking back to you, you know, that is just a recipe for frustration, hopelessness, a sense of abandonment. You know, life;' up to me and I think the whole point of the gospel, the whole point of Jesus coming, was to model what it's like for a guy like you and me and for any of you as a listener, we're meant to learn how to live in utter dependence on God, on His perfect Word, on His voice, on His provision, on His protection, on the fact that He's got a plan for us. And that requires is that we actually trust that we're being brought into deeper union with Him, not go figure it out on your own with this, you know, incredible list of tips and techniques. I tried being a son without dialogue and it just did not work. And and I can look back now and realize that there were a set of rules of engagement that I came into my relationship with God as Father, that came out of my relationship with my dad. And my dad, I love him, I love him, but he was a workaholic. He worked late. He worked on Saturdays, and he was largely inaccessible. And for whatever reason, I just grew up believing God's smart, He's capable, He can do great things, He's brilliant. He runs the world. I don't want to bother him.Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:03] Yeah.Jay Heck: [00:13:03] He's got very few words for me, and I only want to go to him and ask him for help when I really, really, really, really need it. And I took that in to my relationship with God and I realize the fruit of that is to not want to bother Him. And everything in Scripture actually says the opposite.Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:22] Yes.Jay Heck: [00:13:23] Come quickly. Come boldly. You know, ask me, like he never gets tired of of repetition. He watches the sun come up every single day throughout human history, and He's got to rejoice in it.Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:35] Yeah, that is crystal clear the way you're explaining it, of of the flip of like that's what is true. I know it's true. I've experienced it to be true. But yet the default is is to keep in the direction of I'll give distance I'll just you know, I'll just hear His voice through the Bible. That's it, not through. And your prompts that you suggested, I won't have you coaches on it now, but it's so simple. The prompts of like, just ask yes, no questions and it'll leap in your heart. You know, the answers to these question. And then that moves to hearing His voice and going deeper. The other thing you mentioned about Australia, though, is it was not just you and your son, it was a collective and I know this is true about who you are, Jay, is brotherhood in the side of let's not go after creating moments for our kids alone. Let's not go after like this journey alone, like brothers, like you, it's so important. Would you share a little bit of just the Being Sons just your heartbeat when it comes to brotherhood?Jay Heck: [00:14:35] Oh, yeah. In a very, very loving way, after He had made me aware of all the anger and how easily it came up in my life, even in all of my efforts to be a good man, what He revealed to me, after getting my attention. I actually told him I'm ready to give up on you. I'm, I'm done. I'm done. I don't, I don't feel like you're accessible. Blah, blah, blah. And He brought me to that moment so that I threw my journal down in the grass, at one point, in Colorado, on a retreat. And I leaned back in the grass and I said, This is too hard. And it was at that moment that I heard His voice speak to my heart and He said, You were never the beloved son. All of your anger. All of your fear, all of your sadness. All of it is rooted in one simple thing. You have no idea what it feels like, the joy and the freedom, to feel like somebody is going to take care of you no matter what. You feel like you have to be the patriarch everywhere you go. And I broke down crying because I knew it was true. And I feel like He was saying I have an easier way for you, which of course, now makes sense. Jesus, who is the ultimate son, who didn't wrestle with that same thing, He said, Hey, those of you who are weary and heavy laden come to me and I'm going to show, I'm going to show you the secret to living light and easy. And like that was that God was really revealing that to me, The secret to light and easy is you get to be a son. You get to not worry about those things. But it's a completely different way of doing life. And my first question to Him, through tears, was what is that? What does that mean to be a son? I have no idea what that looks like and He didn't answer. But it's like in Jesus brilliant way, He asks questions to disrupt us. You know, we're not intended to have the answer in that moment, we're intended to flush the answer out. And I realized very quickly, I cannot discover the answer to this question in isolation. It has to be, can only come through other men. Because in that moment, not only was He helping me realize the root of all of my anger. He was helping me understand the root of all men's angers and fears and pornography and in addiction to liquor and all this other stuff is just because life is hard, because it's up to me. And I realized that I have to get together with other men, and together we have to figure out what it looks like to be sons. Because there were areas in my story where I was actually really well fathered and I could look back and go, Oh, God, I can clearly see how you've been in my story all along in this area. But then another man, if I hear his story, that gives me the courage to go to God and say, oh, God, that's what I need right there, you know. So we enter into one another's stories and we get to see this fuller picture of how God comes in and comes to these unfinished, uninitiated, unfathered places. And our story really is about inviting God in now to begin fathering in all those ways that we thought we should have been fathered in the past. So, yeah, and there's actually no, I know of no more powerful, in environment or context, into which God will enter and move more quickly than when a man recognizes that in my relationship with my son or with my daughter, I have unfathered places in me, and the result of that is I have a need to give my son something that I don't have. I have a need to give my daughter something that I never got. And God uses being sons to create a context where a man can come and he can both be the son and God teaches him, God Fathers him to be the father at the same time. So it's a real paradigm shift and men can't step into it until we're hungry, thirsty or in pain.Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:16] You have to have one of those three.Jay Heck: [00:19:18] You have to have.Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:19] To propel the courage.Jay Heck: [00:19:20] Yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:22] Yeah.Jay Heck: [00:19:22] Otherwise, why would you ever step off a cliff? Yeah, for sure.Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:25] And Jay, I have already made mention to the First Bloom, a father daughter opportunity. And I know many of your events, they're just, they fill up very quickly. But either way, I want to, I want to get, I want to stoke our guys hunger from the DadAwesome community. Come try to get a, be a part of one of your allies. And your, your website, by the way, is a vault of amazing resources from podcasts to books to documentaries to your blogs. I mean, so many helpful. So I just hope that everyone listening is going to go and glean a ton, but then also just stay in the loop on what you've created and the tribe of just like the like-hearted we pray for like would you just more of these brothers are on it and your gift, Jay, this time, along with the future that I'm looking forward to have time with you and the men in your, in your brotherhood. Anything else, though, that you wanted to, like, make sure our DadAwesome community heard today? Anything else that didn't come, bubble up that you're like, man, I hope they know this?Jay Heck: [00:20:23] Curiosity takes courage. And I know that you've heard me say this throughout the podcast. God's voice is something that you're made in your built to here. You already hear God's voice, that's just the truth. You already hear God's voice. But there's a thousand other voices that are speaking at the same time. And my understanding of why I am alive became much more clear when I began entering into the scary question, Am I made to hear God's voice? Because there's a limitation on how deeply I can, how well I can perform the functions of a Christian and how well I can live in my identity as a son if I can't actually hear His voice. So that opened up a whole Pandora's box. Do I hear God's voice? I know that people claim to hear God's voice, and I've been hurt by people who claim that they hear God, right? So there's there's all of this junk that surrounds it. But if you were to pull back the scales and all the filters that we tend to look through, the simple story that we're, that we're living in is that every human being on the planet was created out of love, for God, for His glory to be in a father, son enterprise. That's it. We're all created to be powerful. We're all created to be utterly dependent on God. And that other utter dependence learning to be utterly dependent on God as a really beloved son learns to be utterly dependent on Saturday morning with their loving father who just says, Hey, get in the truck, we're going somewhere. And they just do. And they don't care where. They don't worry about the future. They don't worry about the past. They're just like I'm just here with my dad. Like, what if that's the invitation? But really, what if that's the reason that we're alive? And the what if you're you are actually hearing God's voice? What if it was a lot easier when you were younger? What if there's just a thousand voices that are all speaking and the key to hearing God's voice was not trying to recognize what it sounds like, but instead was you're trying to recognize you're asking Jesus, teach me what it doesn't sound like. What I've learned, is there's really two scriptures that are really key. One, is 1 Corinthians 13, you know, kind of the love chapter. Love is patient. Love is kind. Okay, well, if God is love like it says in 1 John, then that means that God's voice, which is a manifestation of Him, God's voice cannot ever, ever in human history be inconsistent with His nature. It will always be consistent with it, right? So God's voice is loving. God's voice is patient. God's love is kind. It keeps no record of wrongs. It does not rejoice in evil. And I'm like, Oh, wow, most of my life I've been afraid that if I ask God to speak to me, He would express his impatience. He would bring up all of these wrongs with me, but He can't, by His nature, He can't do that. That's not how He's going to change us. That's not how He's going to bring us into the reality of our Sonship with Him, it's always going to be loving. And then the second scripture's, Galatians 5, the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Okay, well, you listen to any voice, God's voice is always going to produce that fruit. If it doesn't, it's not His. You just discard it and you go, okay, God, I heard something, but the fruit that it produced in me was fear and not love. Was that you?Jeff Zaugg: [00:24:44] Not a chance.Jay Heck: [00:24:45] Not a chance. Right. So it's really, really, really simple stuff. And I will, I just want to finish with this this picture, because it's very new. It's very fresh to me. And even though I was asking in the context of hearing God's voice, it actually applies to everything. He said, you're, he said, Son, I was asking Jesus, even after hearing, learning to hear Your voice for a couple of years, my life's not perfect. I feel like, I felt like for sure, If I begin hearing Your voice clearly and trusting it was You, then I would have the courage to make the boldest moves in the world and life would turn around in a heartbeat. I I need to understand from Your perspective, what are You doing? And I immediately had a picture of any of the miles and miles of ranch roads down here in Texas, which are rocky, and around these ranches are these stone walls. And I got a picture of, I got that picture, but I got a picture of the movie War Horse. God speaks to me a lot through pictures that I've seen. So movie, War Horse, there's this big horse and and they're trying to plow a field and you've got the plow, and He's like, This has been your life in the field is full of rocks. And He said, We're going to plow this field and I'm making you fruitful. I'm making you good soil by removing all the rocks, but you can only remove the rocks one rock at a time. And He said, look back and I just had just got a picture, I kept focusing on the field and all the rocks, and I didn't turn around until that moment and look and recognize look at all the rocks that in partnership with Him, we've already been able to remove. There was already stuff growing there that couldn't have been before.Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:47] Yeah.Jay Heck: [00:26:47] So my last thought would be, God is very patient, like a farmer, with each of us. And He's going to teach us a lot of things that we don't even know are available, we don't even believe are available and that's actually going to take a lot of courage for us to believe are available. And the way that He's going to do it, He's not going to do it with a quick, quick fix because He knows that we can immediately doubt if it came in a moment, then it can be lost in a moment. But if we go on the journey and every day is like waking up, He's like, Today we're going to move one rock from that field. And I can look back now over 10, 12, 14 years, and I go, Holy smoke, I never saw the significance of that day, but now I can look back in over a decade, I can see the significance. I can see that God has actually moved mountains. If you were to stack all those rocks up, they would make a mountain. Right. So maybe He does move mountains, but He moves them one rock at a time. The last observation about that field is that I looked around in this field and all those rocks that you remove to make a field that can grow things, you would stack those rocks us and it actually built a perimeter of protection around the kingdom that we were creating. And God was saying, unless you and I share the experience of removing this rock together and then placing it over here, you're always, you're never going to feel that your kingdom is safe. Not only do we have to cultivate it together, you and I are protecting it together. I'm creating a wall. Remember, above all things, guard your heart, for out of it flows the wellspring of life. Us taking the time to do this, father and son, is actually cultivating a field and then creating a protective perimeter around it, which is going to serve you and your family for the rest of your life.Jeff Zaugg: [00:28:47] And beyond your life and beyond, because the rock walls, we know that the rock walls, those are what last a thousand years.Jay Heck: [00:28:55] Yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:28:56] Jay, like my mind is like bursting with additional, like, trails we could go down and ask. But I think people today we'll, we'll, we'll pause and end in prayer and then we just know I'm going to come after you for another round at some point.Jay Heck: [00:29:10] Well, I love it. I love it. Jeff Zaugg: [00:29:12] Yeah. Would you pray over all of us listening?Jay Heck: [00:29:15] Yeah. Yeah. Father. Jesus. Holy Spirit. We don't know all that You have in your heart to do for us, but we just thank You that you've got a proven track record throughout human history of doing impossible things. Even overcoming our doubts, our greatest fears, recognizing, Lord, that some of the most powerful, most loving, the best dads in the world throughout human history did not start out that way. They were not fully equipped for their task. They learned it. Which is why they became so passionate about it. It's what made them so gloriously powerful. And I just pray, Father, that You would continue to meet me where I am today and that You would continue to meet Jeff where he is right here today, and that you would meet us as a loving father where every one of those listening is here today in our doubt, in our fear, in our brokenness, in our addictions, in our mistakes, would you meet us here? Jesus, we thank you that we not only have a really loving father, but we have this savior of the world who's, that You're willing to enter into our story and actually become our big brother and say, Hey, everything that our loving dad's asking you to do, I'm, I'm going to show you this. Jesus, thank you, that you're the model, that You're our older brother. We need an older, wiser brother who's experienced everything we'll ever experience. And that you're helping us do this, That, we just call on you, Jesus. Would you help us learn how to be a beloved son? What does it look like? What does it feel like to take the risk that we have a good father who will never overlook our needs and that actually has better plans for us than we could possibly imagine? And thank you, Jesus, for your Holy Spirit that lives us inside us, that teaches us to hear God's voice to walk with You. So, just so thankful, God, that you are so good and that when we feel like things are the worst and we're so afraid to break down, that's actually where You tend to meet us most powerfully. So give us the courage to not avoid breakdown, but instead to embrace it. We do need You. We need You, Jesus. We need You, Father. We need You, Holy Spirit. And would You come and meet me where I am? What are the questions that You want me to ask You right now? Thank you, Lord. Thank you for the abundant evidence of Your goodness to us and we pray that You would reveal yourself in a way that we can see and hear and know You. Amen.Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:28] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 285 with Jay Heck. The conversation notes, the links, and a specific action step is a link to Jay's E-book, how, it's a son's guide on How to Dialogue with Jesus. So that's free. And you can get that on their website, but I'll link directly to that. To my oldest daughter. I'll hand the mic. Where do they find the show notes for this week's episode?Kiva Zaugg: [00:32:55] dadawesome.org/285.Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:56] That's right. dadawesome.org/285. Guys, thank you for listening. Do you want to thank the guys?Kiva Zaugg: [00:33:02] Thanks for being a part of DadAwesome and listening to the episodes.Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:05] Have a great week, guys.