315 | Being Abducted as a Family, Exchanging Fear for Love, and the Signs of False Identity (Jamie Winship: Part 2)
Episode Description
Would you show love to a masked gunman who abducted you and your family? For Jamie Winship, the answer was yes. As he shares the details of this frightening experience, Jamie will inspire you to exchange fear for love as you seek God’s true identity for you.
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Jamie Winship is known for bringing peaceful solutions to some of the world’s highest conflict areas. His work in law enforcement and education led his family around the world, including South Asia and the Middle East. Jamie and his wife, Donna, are co-founders of Identity Exchange and have three adult sons.
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· Being in your true identity makes you more relational, take risks, and face reality.
· The enemy is always in the hypothetical future, but God is in the present.
· To identify false identities, ask God, “What are the things I believe about myself that hurt me?”
· Your true identity in God will be others-focused, self-emptying, and characterized by unconditional love for your enemies.
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Jamie Winship: [00:00:38] You want your kids to have a right view of God, but you can't give away what you don't have. But what you do have, you will give away. And so if I'm a disappointment, it's going to come out. I learned to be afraid of money. I learned to be terrified by money by laying in my bed at night when I was in elementary school, listening to my parents fight over money upstairs. I learned, wow, that money is super powerful and it's mean and we don't have it. So either I'm going to be poor my whole life or I'm going to spend the rest of my life not being poor. Both are deadly.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:11] Hey, guys. Welcome back to DadAwesome, episode 315. This is the second half of our conversation with Jamie Winship. If you missed last week, hit pause right now, jump back into episode 314, that's the set up. The, it's about a 30 minute episode to set up. We've got about 25 more minutes for you today. Going deeper into all of these topics. We're talking about our identity. We're talking about Living Fearless. That's the name of Jamie Winship book. We're talking about, man, what are we modeling? Our kids are learning by watching how we respond. And are we living with a self-centered, I'm living for myself, or are we living for the kingdom and for others and they're paying attention. So here we go, this is the second half, going to jump right in, episode 315 with Jamie Winship.
Jamie Winship: [00:02:09] If your spouse and your kids the gift of your true identity, it's your great, it's your gift to the world. Like, right, and so for them, they would say, so what they watched as me and Donna moved into the truth of who we are, they would say that now. They saw a true identity. The truth of who we are, is a risk. It causes you to be a risk taker, right. It makes you relational. And it, and I love this one, it makes you face reality. So when you face reality, that is the Indonesian situation, well, we got to be realistic. Well, that realistic is that God can protect us in any scenario. That's what's realistic. What's not realistic is you got to protect yourself in every situation. That's how much upside down we are. Really, I mean, we love God, but to be real, that's what people say. That drives me crazy when they say it. I said, okay, you're, you just said what's real now you're moving into what's not real in that statement. And so yeah, that's what they would, they would what's at shift and they would see us take risk and they would see us be relational, and then they would see us be real. Like, yeah, the reality in this situation is we don't, I mean, we, when we were in Iraq, me and Donna and our two sons got abducted. We're like, we got abducted by masked gunmen. And I'm like, how many families get to be abducted together? Like, that's a, that's a good fam... There's a family outing for you. And when we got abducted, we got stopped by these gunmen in the, by the Euphrates River. And, and they took me and my Iraqi friend in one vehicle with armed guys. And the other armed guys got in our car with Donna and our sons, and they, they that's how they, Donna's like, don't let them separate us. I'm like, if I try and stop this operation, someone's gonna get shot right now. At least if we just go with it and see what happens. You should hear our sons talk about that incident. They laugh about it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:14] Well, I want to hear about it right now. Tell me a little bit more right now. Like what, how long were you apart from your family?
Jamie Winship: [00:04:24] So we were, we were, it was just me and my Iraqi driver, my friend Yusef and Donna and our two kids. And we were driving around. We were driving, my Iraqi friend said, hey, look, you're in Iraq, you know, and it's a terrible situation, but for the first time, we can drive across the bridge is only Saddam's relatives could ever cross the bridges, Tigris and Euphrates. And he said, you have to, like, let's go see the Euphrates, because we can do it if we do it in the daylight and quick. So like that sounded like a game, so we jump in the car. And we're driving across and our son, the, our middle son, who's now an FBI agent, he was leaning out the window of the car, videoing as we crossed the bridge, this beautiful video. I mean, how many people get to do this? We get to cross over onto the other side and we're driving down the road. And then behind us comes these two trucks and you know, and it's the like mast AK 47s. And we're like, uh oh. And one of them drives around in front of us and the others behind us, and they, you know, they block us so we can't move. They jump out there screaming and yelling and waving their guns and everything. And, and so, you know, this what I'm saying about the Lord's progression and how He teaches us things, like, so if this would have happened at another time in our life earlier, it would have been different. But like, there's this certain kind of thing like, you know what, this is going to go the way it's going to go. Like and so we can fight it, push back against it, but it's going to go the way it's going to go. And five of our team had already been killed since we had been there. So this is like real. That's the real part. But it's also real that God is still the one managing this whole thing, overseeing. And so you just have this kind of calm. It's really interesting. And so they, you know, got me out of the car and they got Yusef out of the car and they're screaming and yelling at us and we're just like de-escalating. You know, we're not going to match drama for drama, like that's the worst thing, we're just de-escalating. And Donna's in the car and and, and they're talking, they're, two guys are leaning back in the back with our kids and her. And she's just yelling to me, don't let them separate us. Like, don't let them separate us. And that's what I said. Like, I don't think I'm going to have a choice in this situation because we have been arrested before where they didn't separate. Like, this is like a history of us. And, I was just me and Donna at that time. But, and so they separate us, and I'm, I'm with the, the I have to go get in the car with the guys, and I'm like, okay, this is about you have to stay in the present tense, right. That's this whole thing is like, don't get 30 seconds ahead into the unknown future because that's where the enemy is. The enemy is always in the hypothetical, right. He's not in the truth, he's in the hypothetical. And most of us live in the hypothetical. That's why we self protect. And so we just stay in, we'reokay, we're okay. We're okay right now. No one's hurt. No shots have been fired. They haven't hit anybody. They're mad about whatever. But but so let's just go with it. And, really, honestly, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Like, that's what it says. Do we believe this stuff or not? And so it's just a kind of calm and it's a discipline, though. It's like you learn how to do it. And so Donna was in the other car and she was just singing praise songs, and our kids were teasing her about it while they're in the car with the gunmen. They're teasing her about the songs she's singing. Because you know why, because they grew up with joy. They, they know how to do it. And they knew it would help her. They were a 17 and 14 year old, teasing her like this doesn't even exist. What exists is our relationship, and we care about how you feel. And they're teasing her about it, like that. And so, so we get, so then we're driving and then they go underneath a bridge and and then I was like, uh oh this is not this doesn't look good. They drove up underneath the bridge and I was like, okay, all right, still okay. The other, the other vehicle came, they didn't separate us, you know, like go different places, they took us to the same place. Good, all positive. That's great. And then, and so then they they came and they, they wanted our son's video camera, so they grabbed it, and then they took the Iraqi, my Iraqi friend, they took him and they left me. And then they came back and got me and brought me into, and there was this little like, trailer mobile office thing under the bridge. And so I go in there and they left them in the car, and I'm like, this still, like, is not an execution scenario, now. This is different. This is some kind of interrogation something or other. And so we took it. And then they they watched the video. They were watching the video and they were saying to me, why are you videotaping this site? Because they thought we were intelligence people, that we were going to blow up the bridge. That's what they thought we were doing. They thought we were collecting information to blow up the bridge. Which is not unusual in how it works over there, kids are often a part of. So so they're watching the video to see what we were documenting. And then this is the craziest part, they start laughing their head, the guys, the armed guys/ they start laughing their heads off, watching the video and I'm like, I don't even know what's on the video. And then there's, then they say, what is this? What do you, what, they're laughing like, what is this? And I'm like, I don't know, I haven't seen it. And they show it to me. And it's a video of our two kids making like a WWE wrestling movie in their bedroom. And they got on like these, like, wrestling outfits, and they're jumping across the bed and videoing each other and tackling each other. And I said, oh, that's those, that's my two sons. They're making a movie about something. And then everyone laughed and haha and they gave me the camera back and they let us go.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:35] Oh, my gosh. Jamie, I like, your storytelling, I could just ask story after story. But like you're, you're mentioning, like, transferable, that's that's wisdom for all of us dads right now. One of them was, there was a calmness. And if I could just be a dad who's calm. Massive, massive advantage to to bringing, you know, a loving culture to our home. The second thing you mentioned was de-escalation. If I could just be a dad who de-escalates, brings emotions down, brings...
Jamie Winship: [00:11:09] That's exactly right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:10] The fear down. And then the third thing you mentioned is just staying in the present moment. Could you just, you could pick any, any whatever one you want, just go a little further into dad wisdom around that, those principles.
Jamie Winship: [00:11:22] Right. Okay, so, so the de-escalation and the calm. So when you watch Jesus, Jesus, you know, as they say, never runs anywhere. He's never in a hurry. He's never freaked out. He, he's not dramatic. He, He, He is intense. Like when He throws over the tables, but it's so tactically smart what He's doing, it's so well thought out. He's not just dramatically reacting to drama. And so what, so never participate, the enemy loves drama. The enemy loves drama because drama goes out of control. And so, one of my, it was a police guy that trained me. He used to say to me, do not participate in another person's drama. Don't participate in their drama. Stay back from it. Don't jump in the pool to save the drowning person, they'll drown you too. If you jump into their drama, you're both going to die in it. Throw them a life raft. Stay back. Stay calm. Throw him a life preserver like that's what you do in a conversation. Like I'm not coming into that drama. And I even will say it to people like, I'm not going to participate in this drama, I'll help you, but I'm not participating in the drama. So that's super important. And that's a discipline too, because if everything, if I'm responsible of how everything happens, then you're going to be in the drama. But I'm not. So staying in the present tense keeps you, because God is only present in the present tense, you know that saying. The enemy is present in the hypothetical future. That's where the enemy lives. So like, for example, should we, God, do you want us to stay in Indonesia? Well, if I start imagining scenarios of our house being burnt down and like, you're not going to stay, but because God's not showing me that picture, that's not how, He's in the present tense. And He, He deals in the present tense. So the more you just stay present, don't jump into the future. If you're going to think about the future, pray about the future from the peace of the present tense. Don't pray from the drama of the hypothetical future, right. Don't let that them. Stay in the present, pray about the future. Like that one, and then, yeah, I, I, I the other thing I didn't say for this situation, but is the guys that are accosting us are afraid. They're afraid. Anytime I'm in a confrontation where someone's threatening me, it's because they're afraid. Our goal to de-escalate, take away their fear. Take away their fear. How do you take away another person's fear? Love them. Love your enemy. So how do you do that in a situation? You, you respect, you respect them. You know, you don't, like like I'm going to kill you and all this stuff. You just don't react like that. Just, okay, this guy's afraid of us. These guys are, we scared them somehow. What are they afraid of? Hamas is afraid of Israel. Israel is afraid of Hamas. Nobody's moving to take away that fear. It's all just fear on fear, which creates conflict and just conflict, conflict, fear, fear, conflict, conflict, fear, fear. It'll never end, right. So, love, teaching your kids how to, how to love their enemy. It's a challenge. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:49] Jamie, none of this, I don't think is possible if we have a false view of our self, a false identity. I don't I just don't think it's possible. We're still, we're talking about, in that story, those scenarios, the calmness, the staying presence, the de-escalation. If I have an inner turmoil of just like I don't understand who God's made me to be, if I'm living as someone who is afraid or feels like a failure, or knows that I have to earn love, it's not freely given. I got to earn it, like whatever that false. What are some signals to, to me right now, and to the other dads listening that, you know, I might have a false identity. I might be believing a false identity. What are some signals? How would I know if I believe in a false identity?
Jamie Winship: [00:15:31] Well, one you're saying, yeah, anxiety for sure. Anxiety, fear. Conflict. You're in constant conflict. Either inside yourself or with people around you. There's just never ending conflict. Those are the signs of the false self. It's self-protection. Self-promotion. Separation is a sign of the false self. The false of will always move in separation, never in connection with others. It'll constantly separate out. And so that's the verse, the soul that sins, the soul that sinneth, the soul that separates it will die. That's what that, it's not about you did a bad thing. God's going to kill you. It's like human beings were made to live in connection with others and God. And when we separate it, it basically destroys us. That's what's in the world, what's happening to us. So those are, those are the symbols, the signs of the false self. But deeper than that, this is the exercise I would suggest is just sit alone with God and ask, and just breathe and relax and try and settle down and just say, God, search me right now. Search me right now. And would You help me to be able to say the things that I believe about myself that hurt me? What are the things I believe about myself that hurt me? And and just let them come to your mind. Mine are always, I'm a disappointment, right. That's my big one. I'm a disappointment. And I can feel myself whenever someone wants to come and say, Jamie, can we talk about how you did this? Because we have some... I can feel that I'm a disappointment go... You know, it's so, it's so drilled into me by my mom. That, and she was doing it because she loved me. You know, if I didn't want to go to church or something, she would say, well, I think God's disappointed in you. That's a, that's a killer for a kid to be told that they're a disappointment because it's it's an identity that they start to receive and I did .so then every success I had after that wasn't healthy. It was to prove I'm not a disappointment. And so the success didn't help, it actually made me feel more like I was a disappointment. So that's the exercise is like if you're experiencing conflict and anxiety and, and, just inner conflict, it's like, stop and say, okay, what am I afraid of? Lord, what are names that I believe about myself that hurt me? And then you can even ask, because they're all learned names, you weren't born believing, I didn't, wasn't born thinking I was a disappointment. I learned that I was. I wasn't born thinking I was a failure, I saw my grades and realized I was a failure, right. It's these places, and like, yes, kids are developing, they start to realize, oh, wow, I'm ugly, I didn't never know that. But once they know it every time they look in the mirror, they see it. That's the power of the lie, right. So we have to untangle that.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:35] And that, those lies, those believed truths that hurt us, that are not truths from heaven, they're lies from from from the enemy, that came through relationships, a lot of them through a parent or through...
Jamie Winship: [00:18:48] Thats right. That's right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:50] We have a choice to either press in to those areas and experience the truth, or we could cope, we could numb. We can, which is, maybe where most of us dad's listening right now, are are choosing that path versus the path of experiencing the truth and walking in our true identity. Would you, would you agree?
Jamie Winship: [00:19:10] That's right, 100%. You know, we all develop coping mechanisms, especially when you're young and you don't understand everything that's happening to you. So you have to develop coping mechanisms to deal with the pain of what you're finding out about yourself, even though it's false. And so, okay, if I realize I'm not smart, like if I all of a sudden, oh my gosh, I'm not, I'm not as smart as these other people in this class. You only have two options. Either you just quit, that's what a lot of kids do, or you might turn into this best student that ever lived. Both are deadly. Both are deadly. Either one is deadly. Instead of like, I know you're not, I'm not as smart as these people in certain things. But I have a unique identity, unmatched, unmatched in the world. And the goal of my education and vocation and Bible study and everything is to develop this identity to the highest level that I can in relationship to God. And I'm, let me tell you, you will never reach that level. It is so great and so beyond. I love doing this with young people. We're doing it, we're meeting with a group of 20 to 30 year olds right now. We've been with them six months and all we've worked on is their view of God. That's all we've talked about and it's dramatic what's happened to them. So as dad, you want this, you want your kids to have a right view of God. But you, you can't give away what you don't have. But what you do have, you will give away. And so if I'm a disappointment, it's going to come out. It comes out, if I'm, if I learn to be afraid of money. I learned to be terrified of by money by laying in my bed at night when I was in elementary school, listening to my parents fight over money upstairs. I learned, wow, money is super powerful and it's mean and we don't have it. So either I'm going to be poor my whole life or I'm going to spend the rest of my life not being poor. Both are deadly, right. Instead of just, so for, yeah, for me as a parent, as a dad, I want to, I want to develop that wholeness and wellness in myself. What do I believe about myself that's false? Jesus, I give that false belief to You. What do You say about me? I'm, I'm actually speaking about this at our church on Sunday. Watching, watching Moses go up to God and say, this is what this whole thing's falling apart. What do You say about me? That's right. And God says to him, you're my friend. You found favor in, the whole thing's burning down all around him. The people have invented another god. The whole thing's a disaster. He broke that, he broke the clay tablets. It's like all people are dying. And he's like, what, I'm not moving unless You move. That's what he's saying. I want to just be in Your presence. Are you present in this? And if You are, what do You say about me? And God says, you're my friend. You find favor. I'm with you. I want you to go. And then Moses says, show me your glory then. And God does. Like that, it's all about Moses and his identity with God, not about all this. Its first this, just first him and God.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:16] Yes. And the first, the Me and God I and I think I have these these notes. Hopefully they're correct. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, the three areas that are always true in identity from God, that it's others focus, that it's self-admitting, is that right? Self-admitting?
Jamie Winship: [00:22:33] Empty. Empty. Emptying.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:35] I had an auto correct in my, self-emptying. And the third is unconditional love for my enemies. Did I get that one right?
Jamie Winship: [00:22:42] Right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:43] Would you take us into those three? [00:22:44][0.8]
Jamie Winship: [00:22:44] That's the mo... Yeah, that's the model of Jesus. Again, I, I, I watched this be displayed by another human being that I got to work with and it's other focus, self-emptying, unconditional love for your enemy. And I would watch this person live it out with great skill. I mean, it's not like you're, it's not like you're some weakling that goes in and you're a pacifist and you get. I learned this from, like, Special Forces people, in an arena where it would look like this would never be effective, but it's the most effective thing. I was talking to one of them the other day. He just got promoted because of his skill at doing this in overseas in the worst places. But it's it's Philippians chapter two. It's Jesus. He didn't consider having something to be held on to for Himself, but emptied Himself and and submitted Himself unto death, even death of the cross. For who? For people that were hostile towards Him. I mean, it's it's a high bar. It is a very high bar, but it is the bar. And so if I'm going to live, we say we want to be Christ-like. And I think, do we? Really? See, that's another thing, I think with our kids, we have to be careful is not to use platitudes with them, you know, but really to say, look, this is the goal and, and it's, it's a journey and we fail, but but God is always with us. God is for us. But the goal is to be other focused in life. The goal is to be self-emptying so that I'm not building my own empire, and then to and to to have unconditional love for the ones that seem hostile towards us in whatever way and in whatever scenario. And and this is the life of Christ for, for us. You know, I can yeah, just another one of the guys that I work with right now, he's, he's working with Boko Haram in Somalia and the worst and their lead guy now is a, is a, is was a Boko Haram terrorists dude that his his specialty was killing pregnant women. And they, our guy, who is a former NFL player, he's a big dude. And he, he is, one of his struggles is with anger in life. And he's had this beautiful identity transformation in himself. And he's become the kind of guy that works with these kind of young men. And so he he gets assigned this, they make contact with this guy who's not a, you know, he's horrible. And our, our, our coach starts meeting with him. And it takes everything in him to ever be in a room with this guy and not just kill him. And just trying to love him and emptying himself of his own desire to jump into the drama and end this thing and all that. And the guy came to faith. Why does he come to faith? Because the love of this other guy took away his fear of being powerless and alone. That's the fear of the terrorists. Powerless and alone. That's their fear. And so when they realize, wow, you're not powerless and you're not alone, then they don't have to, there's no need to fight anymore. So this guy's become, you know, just this Haram guy has become an amazing weapon in the kingdom of God for reaching those kinds of people. But that's, you can't do it if you're just out there to self protect and self-promote.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:19] Right, right. What did this lead you, where did God lead you? I know it's specific. Not a, not a, not a broad statement, but a specific for you. What is your true identity, Jamie?
Jamie Winship: [00:26:30] Yeah. My true identity is, I'm going to show you. This is a brass knot, tied knot. And my, and I have this because the person gave it to me because my identity is untier of knots. So it's been a journey to come to this kind of specific understanding of who I am. It was like from warrior over years to militant peacemaker to untier of knots. It's like general ed and then a master's and a PhD. It's like, it's so beautiful how God does this stuff. And so that's what I do. And I, so again, back to what I said earlier, the great, the greatest gift I can give my own sons and their wives and my grandkids is to untie their knots. That's my greatest gift to them as a dad, father in law, grandparent. My greatest gift to my wife is to be the untier of her knots. See how simple that is? That is my gift to the world. In my mother's womb, God made me an untier of knots. In Christ I've discovered how to become who God made me to be at the highest level. And so now when I write a book, it's about untying, it, it's involves in, everything I do involves untying knots. Even this conversation we're having is like my, in my head, in my spirit is this there's dads out there there's people out there listening who are knotted up. And we need to, like, just untie those and just untie those knots.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:28:03] Jamie, this has been, I think the 3% of the iceberg of what God has led for you and your wife in the work. We're a little bit of the 3%. There's the 97% that I'm going to send to your website, to courses, your book, some of the coaching. So I'm going to make sure to send our DadAwesome community your way for more, and hopefully we'll get to have another conversation at some point to go into the many pages of questions that I didn't even ask you. But thank you for this time. Would you, would you say a short prayer over all of us?
Jamie Winship: [00:28:32] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Lord, thank you for, yeah, just thank you for this time. Thank you for Jeff, Lord. Thank you for each listener. Each listener is someone, Lord, that you knit together in their mother's womb and unique, one of a kind, you've never made anyone like them and you never will again. And so, Lord, Jeff and I both, we bless these listeners to discover who they really are in relationship to who you really are, Lord. I just, I pray for freedom for them. I pray that they would move into a relationship with with Christ that's an exchange of shame for beauty. That that's false for true. And we know that to know and experience truth is to be free, it's to understand freedom. So I pray that, I pray that blessing on all the listeners, and that they would, Lord, that if if any of them went to you and said, what kind of, how do You see me as a parent or a human? What You would say is, is that You're proud of them. No matter what they're doing, You're proud of who they really are. And your challenge might be, let's live out who you really are, right. Let's stop living out the false. But, but You love them and You care about them. So Lord, may they receive these truths and be blessed by You, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:30:03] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 315. This was the second half of my conversation with Jamie Winship. All the conversation notes are going to be at dadawesome.org/podcast. Guys, once in a while, if I end up reading half of a book for preparation, I'll call it good there. I'll read half the book, you know, two thirds of the book, and I'll have the podcast conversation and I won't go back and finish the book. Well, that was certainly not the case for today's conversation, Jamie Winship, of his book, Living Fearless. I went back and in the following week, after recording, I finished the rest of his book, and I've already been recommending it. This is one of those, it's almost embarrassing, I've been recommending to my buddies to read the book, Living Fearless by Jamie Winship, before the episode comes out so that my my friends probably won't want to listen to today's episode because they've already listened to or read the book. So, that's how much I'm recommending all of the resources from Identity Exchange, the ministry that Jamie leads with his wife, and specifically the book Living Fearless. Guys, I hope you lean in more to these topics. Every bit of work we do in this area of our identity pays itself back 10, 20, 30, 100 times over when it comes to our kids and grandkids. When we experience healing in our true identity, it's such a gift to our kids. So, thanks for pressing in. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being DadAwesome. Have a great week, guys.
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· 11:26 - "When you watch Jesus, Jesus never runs anywhere. He's never in a hurry. He's never freaked out. He not dramatic. He is intense. Like when He throws over the tables, but it's so tactically smart what He's doing, it's so well thought out. He's not just dramatically reacting to drama. So never participate, the enemy loves drama. The enemy loves drama because drama goes out of control.
· 15:36 - "You're in constant conflict. Either inside yourself or with people around you. Those are the signs of the false self. It's self-protection. Self-promotion. Separation is a sign of the false self. The false self will always move in separation, never in connection with others. It'll constantly separate out. The soul that sinneth, the soul that separates it will die. It's not about you did a bad thing, God's going to kill you. It's like human beings were made to live in connection with others and God. And when we separate it, it basically destroys us. Those are the symbols, the signs of the false self. But deeper than that, this is the exercise I would suggest is just sit alone with God and just breathe and relax and try and settle down and just say, God, search me right now. And would You help me to be able to say the things that I believe about myself that hurt me? What are the things I believe about myself that hurt me? And and just let them come to your mind."
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