Jeff Zaugg (01:47):David Horsager joining me for it's actually our round two. So six, eight months ago, last summer we had you on for round one, but we're getting you back here for round two. So welcome to dadAwesome.David Horsager (01:57):I'm so excited to be here. And I think I made a commitment. My assistant reminded me, you said you're going on a a hundred mile bike ride. Do I need to put things in your calendar so that, you know, you get training days?Jeff Zaugg (02:07):That's amazing that you brought it up because I actually just, if you're watching on YouTube, I usually have my bike sitting behind me for, I took it out for this one. Since we're talking dadAWESOME. Less Fathers for the Fatherless, but yes, you're invited August 28th. We're doing the 100 mile Twin Cities, the 100 mile ride. We've actually locked in five other cities and this mission of inspiring dads to do something hard for the fatherless. So thanks for your commitment, on the air now, in the podcast world. Oh, I love that. And, you know, one thing I wanted to say as we get started here, David is there are friends and mentors that speak, not a mass quantity of hours, but you know, we've had three or four conversations in the last, in the last year that, that do change the trajectory of, I believe it can happen in our dad life and in our leadership. And for ministries, those conversations, it's a deposit that actually pays itself back many, many times over. And you've been one of those leaders for me that has inspired and encouraged and turn some dials. You've also spoken some truth of like, no, you need to think about this and with, with some passion behind it. So I wanted to just say, thank you for the impact you've made on the ministry of dadAWESOME.David Horsager (03:10):Thank you. It's all in love, but I get paid to tell the truth. I'm sorry, but I hope I do it when I'm not, you know, when I'm not paid too. So I, whether it's in the boardroom or in the, accountability group or friendship, um, uh, you know, that speaks to something for dads. I mean, just jumping right in here. Like, I think I've got my accountability weekend coming up here, very soon in a week or so. And it's like, well, that's one thing that group we've sharpened each other. And, but there's the reason is there's truth in genuine love. Like we care so much about each other, and yet we're willing to say, how are you doing as a dad? How you doing as a husband, how you doing as a leader of a company, and we're going through something right now, if you've heard of it Praxis Labs, but how do you, how do you be redemptive leaders or redemptive entrepreneurs when you have power over people? How do you make sure you're paying them well, loving them, you know, encouraging, you know creating a space where people can be their best and all God wants them to be. So, anyway,Jeff Zaugg (04:11):It's amazing. And I'll link Praxis labs, some of the resources in the show notes, because that's a, that's an amazing movement of resourcing that they're doing for dads and leaders. Um, I wanted to start here just to catch up since we did chat and I haven't had many guests on twice in the matter of seven months. But just as a catch-up anything new that you've realized as a dad, as a leader on the home front specifically though, that a new learning that has affected your dad life, your priorities, the disciplines that you bring to, loving your kids? Well, any, any new insights that you've learned?David Horsager (04:40):Well, that is a, that's a great question. I mean, you know, I went from flying a hundred times a year or whatever it was to, to be at home in a pandemic. And, I think people would say, I think my wife would say it was active, but it's, it's, it's just, it's different in how we do it. I think there are lots of things. There's so many things I still need to get better at man, you know, patience. And I think sometimes in some ways I've been so intentional that it can be too much in, in certain ways. But, I think one little idea that Lisa and I have that is stuck in starting to become a practice is something Lisa says, my wife says often is "see the good, say the good, share the good." And I think I might've mentioned this.Jeff Zaugg (05:22):I don't think so. No,David Horsager (05:25):Then it's fresh. So basically, I don't remember when she spoke at her grandma's funeral years ago, she said this "grandma, she believed in me, even when I didn't believe in myself, everybody needs someone to believe in them, especially if they don't believe in themselves." And I think there's this, this thing, you know, for me, I probably a lot of my, if I have success, at least natural success, part of it is the ability to critique and see the problem. And in the boardroom, I'm asked to find the biggest problem of a multi-billion dollar company, right? Or even, even when Lisa and I started in ministry, we were doing, f you think back over 20 years ago, we were actually doing performance and performance and you have to critique it to get better. And I remember someone told me something about, I could say his name, but I won't, but a very famous magician and he's amazing onstage. And nobody ever wants to be around him. He's such a critical, down person and he's just critical in everything. And I think sometimes our criticalness that actually can help us in a way, not that we don't need to be encouraging. And definitely I don't, I want to have an encouraging environment in my company, but criticalness can so quickly keep in, to seep in, I think, especially as dads, because we want to solve problems. I want to solve that situation when I solve that challenge. And so I think one thing I keep having to learn, but I think I've gotten to another level of hopefully a little bit for a time, at least, of see the good, say the good, share the good. So instead of seeing the challenge, seeing the good, they're seeing the good in that kid, seeing the good that they are doing, even if they still have a messy room, even if they still aren't doing as well in their grades, even if they made this other mistake. And in my case, you know, you know, tailgated someone rammed into the car in front of them and totally told the front end or whatever it is. It's like, there's a see the good piece here. And if we can see the good and say the good and share that good, there's a theory in, base in corporate psychology that is, appreciative inquiry. And it basically the whole study is around, what's the "best of" look like? We've got all these problems. We know that, but let's look at what, when did we serve a client really well, when would we do this thing really well? And let's focus on that now, how can we replicate that? And I think that's what we're looking for in "see the good" of a kid or, or a, or a marriage or anything is like, when have we been when we've really shown love? When are we really what's it T when we follow Jesus like this, when we do that, what's that what's that look like and replicating that, and maybe a little more of that and a little less critique.Jeff Zaugg (08:08):Yeah. That immediately, my mind jumped to Valentine's day. We did a little special time with my little girls and my four year old. I just, we went around and each person, the person on the left, we said, we said, I love you because, and, I just found myself rattling off, reasons, specific reasons of why I love her and her eyes got bigger and bigger and shinier and shiner, and it applies to our families, but also our coworkers, our neighbors, like by seeing and saying, the good, we all just kind of sit up a little taller and and we all shine a little more. And so I love that principle. It actually ties into where I wanted to launch to next, which is around the, the principle of reflection, how often we can survive the dad life, or we can just move into the next chapter and be like, that was hard. I'm moving onward. And, and actually the year 2020, the reason that you, you spent some intentional time reflecting is because it was a crisis in so many ways of leadership is crisis. If you reflect a, you actually quoted somebody else. I forget, you said, don't waste the opportunity in a crisis. It was one of your mentors or somebody you quoted. But the, the idea of dad's, let's not waste the opportunities, the experiences we have, let's actually reflect on "what did I learn? So I can add that to the next chapter." And I first, before we go into the specifics, I want to dive into a few points. You had 16 points, I'll hit like three or four of them. But why is reflection important for dads?David Horsager (09:31):Well, I think reflection is important for any anyone. And, you know, we're not, I'm, you know, our company and at least what we do is try to, you know, change cultures of organizations. And so we think a lot about learning and development that actually transforms, there was a great article written in Harvard business review on why leadership training fails and what to do about it. And we, we think of these seven components that we have to have for transformation to happen. And one of those is reflection even in that way. And how do I, you know, if I just keep busting through, I'm going to add this new tool, I'm going to do this. I pause and reflection, allows space for God to speak about that to us. It allows space for me to think about this question. What is it? That's a truth.David Horsager (10:10):Okay. But what does that mean for me? What does that, how does that apply to my kids? How does that apply to my marriage? How does that apply to my leadership? Because we often need, even in, in learning development, like, Oh, that's true. That's a good idea. Yeah. I don't waste a good crisis. What does that mean? That one quote, what is that? What does that mean to not waste a good, you mean there's opportunity in it? Oh, what does that, and pausing and reflecting because a big part of learning happens in the fast-paced parts, but a lot of learning happens in the pause and reflecting. What does that mean to me? What's God saying here? What should I do about it? And, and that's why you see, I can't, I don't know if you can count how many journals I have over the years, but, you know, bookshelves of journals, those are the things that I I'll get rid of even good books and pass them on.David Horsager (10:55):But I've got all these journals of pause, write that down, think about it a second. And something great happens. You know, I want a way to a Hermitage one time and had, just in that time of reflection had this kind of epiphany go to grad school. I didn't need to, I didn't think there was any reason it would helped my company at the time. I didn't, I was, we were doing well, but I thought, "I'm supposed to do this." And that was monumental. The starting the Trust research 20 years ago, that led to bestselling books and a whole shift to thinking about our place in the world and what we're supposed to do. One time when I stopped long enough to listen to God, reflect journal and you know,Jeff Zaugg (11:36):Well, I'm going to link the video that has all 16 of them, but let's jump right to the one you just, you just went for, which is sabbatical rest. And it could be a one day. It could be one month. I know you able to take a little time in July, this last summer to like reorient and then lead, well, the second half of the year, but the why is why is rest? And just go a little further into what you're experienced at that Hermitage or just other rhythms of pause and then take new ground.David Horsager (12:01):Well, I'll tell you, first of all, this is difficult for me. I'm very driven naturally. I am driven. And so I have it's work for me to make sure I have these set up even in daily life and annually and so on. You know, in July, I actually gave everybody, everybody went to halftime on the company. I took some specific time to rethink, where are we headed? Where are we going? And that's good. I was actually planning on this year before COVID and everything planning on an actual sabbatical three months sabbatical, where I was kind of writing and rejuvenating. I mean, I'm jumping all over my mind to answer that question. I'm just thinking of you, you know pastors and teachers that don't rejuvenate, and they're just not fresh?David Horsager (12:51):I mean, I'm asked, I'm speaking, I'm training. I can tell if I start to not get fresh, it's like, Oh, that's the same. It might be true, but it just doesn't carry the freshness unless we pause and rejuvenate. And, and that that's, I mean, that's the burnout of many leaders, pastors, maybe even dads, you know, so, a rhythm, some of the rhythms for me, there is, a daily rhythm for Lisa and I get up, pray together before the kids are awake. This is right now, things change at different times in life, right? The weekends, I rarely work at all. As far as business work, even though I might be thinking about certain things, the, the, what I like, I will just mention this because this has been really valuable to me is yearly rhythms. So annually, like going to that Hermitage here in Minneapolis, Pacem in Terris, where I am the most, annually, my wife, too.David Horsager (13:47):There's a mastermind, two mastermind retreats I do. That's more of a rhythm of pause on our company, out of that amazing ideas have happened. Now, because we pause and got away, but I don't have time for this. I don't have time, but boom, we do it. And, the fly to a different part of the country and this group meets and, we all are running companies and, and that has been invaluable, but I'll tell you the most, the key annual one is, my accountability group now for, I dunno, I think it's 28 years or something. It's next in two weekends from now. And that group where we actually do talk about how you, how are you doing as a dad? How you living out your faith, how are you doing as a husband and we can't talk about anybody else. We can, all my wife should do that better. No. So you get to have a, what can you do better? And that pause. And we each share through a series of questions for a few hours, actually, each of the four of us. So we also pause and think, okay, what do we, what are kind of some goals for next year? And that pause - transformation happen because of that pause in the cycle. So there's many other positives,Jeff Zaugg (14:51):Well, that's, that's helpful. And it ties into health and home health and home as a leader, who, again, you get to, you get to meet in boardrooms and through digital meetings with, with these leaders of mega mega mega companies, bigger than we can ever imagine, but, but the principles of health and home, I just know this is deep within you of, Hey, if we don't, if we don't take care of our health, physical bodies, if we don't take care of the home life, our relationships, our marriages, our kids, the multiplying negative impact in the other spheres, I just know is so huge. One of the, it's an acronym when every letter stands for something is an acronym. I believe that's what it's called SEEDS. Would you, would you talk about SEEDS? I've got it written down in case it's been a little bit since he shared it last but starts withDavid Horsager (15:34):Got it. Know, I know, I know it know it though. Let me say some before that also the people in my company know I have, you know, I have chief of staff and executive assistant now, and you know, this team, I didn't always have it that way. People taking stuff off me or whatever, some of the work, still more than I can imagine to do, but I have five things we have no more than five key responsibilities. And I have five key responsibilities as a leader now. These are the things I we're at our best. If I'm only doing these, I'm not doing that, not doing that. You're doing somebody else doing that. One of my five is "healthy heart and home." So my team knows when I fly back, if I don't come in, if I'm going to work out or going to see my kids, they're going to, because I'm gone. That is part of my job for this company is healthy home. So that's just an interesting side note there, but that's helpful. And that being out loud about that, where you can not, everybody can do that. I can't go work for that company and say, well, mine, sorry. You know, but, but I mean, I'm working there's other weeks, I'm 70 hours a week or whatever. So, um, so seeds, I talk about seeds. SEEDS came out of, uh, this idea, Lisa and I were talking about what is it about people that actually are able to transform something? You know, the go to let's say, hear a speaker and they, Oh, am I still excited? And nothing changes, right. And everybody seems to want to change a habit. And almost nobody does. I can ask an audience. How many of you have wanted to change a habit? Raise your hand. Then I'll say, how many of you have ever actually in your life, you want to all the time, but have ever actually changed the habit. That's significant, lost 25 or more pounds. Got, you know, smoking, stop smoking, whatever it is like a real habit, like 6%. It's ridiculous. You know, everybody wants to, but nobody does. How do you do it? So Lisa and I were talking about this and we just kind of started to notice. And this one isn't part of my research base. Okay. This is, but I would say it is experiential research sometimes is best, you know, but anyway, it seemed like they had their SEEDS planted and cultivated. And the seed stands for the first S is sleep. They got enough sleep, they're getting sleep. And, you know, we used to be arrogant. Probably. I used to be even 20 years ago.David Horsager (17:39):I only need five hours of sleep, but you know, you've got people down. I didn't sleep for seven weeks. I mean, you know, people are like, I don't need sleep. And it turns out we do, my midsection is a different size when I sleep my anger level, my, you know, everything changes with sleep. Right. We need it. And it's, the first E is, exercise, moving some, not the, have to do everything. You can see me. I'm at my standing desk in the office today. I never sit. Almost never sit, but I right behind me have a tread desk where I can walk at two miles an hour or whatever. But there, there are other ways to start moving. I'm not going to start running a marathon like my wife, although I did commit to a hundred mile bike ride, I'm going to, you know, and I'm, I've found some ways that I can move more and, and exercise and now even like it and do some triathlons.David Horsager (18:21):But when I started at least the weight loss thing, way back, um, I wasn't into it until I got healthy. Some people like, Oh, you've got healthy by doing triathlons. No, I got healthy. And then all of a sudden that became enjoyable. So that, um, exercise, the second, third letter, the next E and seeds is Eat right. And eat writes up big deal. I mean, what I, I had a doctor say to me, David, do you want to drive a junker or Ferrari? Because we put different fuel in a Ferrari. And if you put that in a Ferrari, you gotta put different stuff in. So I had learned, I had to learn some things and it's different than people think, but, um, I make sure I eat four or five green vegetables a day now. I do some very different things. Not that I still don't like some ice cream, but, um, you know, so, another, another guy, he said, you, um, you can't outrun a cheeseburger and this is kind of fun for us to think about it because he's was like, well, a cheeseburger meal at the time was like, like 1500 calories with the biggest fries, the biggest, all this stuff. It was like the amount I was supposed to have in a day, almost, you know, one, one cheeseburger meal. So it's like you get on a treadmill for an hour or half hour or whatever. It may maybe 500 calories. You can't outrun that. You've got the, you know, so the next the D is drink water. It turns out we're made of it. Most people in America, aren't drinking enough water.Jeff Zaugg (19:38):Then this one, if you're on YouTube, I've got a visual for this. Okay, let's see it. This is it you've inspired me. Last time we were on, I was drinking coffee and you gave me a hard time. It's like, I was like, I got to get my water.David Horsager (19:47):I drink some coffee too. But, thankfully, went from, from, uh, putting stuff in coffee to black, because that was a that's what, 15 years ago, killed me with what you put in it. Right. Um, the final S is source of strength. And that is, you know, for those of us that are believers, that's, that's a source of strength that God it's like people, I sit next to, I I've sat next to CEOs and senior leaders, and they're scared to death. They're going to be found out. They have a pit. I have one, I remember still in the board room. He's like, I have a pit in my stomach every day for this company that I'm not capable. I don't know what I'm, you know, it's like, it's a multi-billion dollar organization. And, I've sat next to the head of a pro sports team. That's just playing alone. And I just, this, we have, what I've found is people that are leading well, actually have a source of strength beyond themselves. And they're better at work. And people are getting all their life from work. They're worse at work. So,Jeff Zaugg (20:45):And ties, it sounds like it ties with faith. It ties sources, source of strength. Friends would fall into that as well.David Horsager (20:50):Is that family, friends, um, and faith. I would put those as kind of that if you find, you know, I don't, I'm in corporate work, I'm not making people find it in certain places, but what we know is if they just get it from work, w there work, they're not as good at work. Yeah.Jeff Zaugg (21:06):Yep. Oh, that's, that's really helpful. Maybe the last one from this category of reflections and how it can leverage again, crisis and reflect and use it as a springboard forward is just around, inputs, always lead to outputs. And I think as a dad remembering that, are we doing these inputs, actually SEEDS would be an example of that. These are inputs, and you're not seeing the impact for a little while later, but I can, you can think of other dad life examples of just reminding us that inputs. There's going to be an output. Just keep going.David Horsager (21:32):Let me clarify this truth, by the way, because this is every science says this business. We say input leads to output. First law of thermodynamics, the great German physicist found energy goes in is exact same as the energy comes out, you know, physiologically eat a bad bowl of chili, uh, you got a bad output, right? So input, output. Pharmy or theology, you reap what you sow - Galatians. You reap what you sow, you know, so you, you, you, uh, basic psychology and other science, same thing, thoughts that go in and lead to desires, which lead to actions. This is that whole, you know, you, you, it starts with a thought, this is why it's so important that, uh, second Corinthians take your thoughts captive. This is why it's so important. You know what whatever's, uh, whatever, uh, Philippians 4:8 - whatever is true, whatever is pure, whatever loving, what is admirable, you think on those things, it's like, this is, this is so critical to have the right input. You think on those things, you get a different output. So it kind of goes back to our appreciative inquiry, even, if we can think on it and see the good kind of fits in. I haven't thought about it this way. Thank you. Thank you for this time of reflection.Jeff Zaugg (22:33):Yes, connecting them all!David Horsager (22:34):Yeah, but, but, but we got to, you know, there was a, the Proverbs in the old way was a, um, I believe it's a King James. It might be a little different than this now, but how we, how we might read it. But it's basically as a man thinks. So is he. So it's, this, this input leads out, but so what's that mean for dads? Well, what are you putting in? Because if you're putting these things in, frankly, if you're putting these TV shows, these movies, these thoughts, these, the, these things into your family and not just you, but your family. Our, our kid, one of them was staying over at somebody else's house. And this weekend they asked the, see, is it okay? At least they asked us, can we say this is that I have no problem saying no, because I know what input leads to and images stay for a long time.David Horsager (23:24):I mean, one of the things I've done, plenty of things wrong. So you can ask my kids. I mean, my, I can talk to my teenagers. You can tell you all things yesterday, probably. But one thing I think we're doing right since COVID, I did mention this before, but it was really fun. Even this morning is every single day, since March something, we get up in the morning earlier, they got to go to school later these days, and we get up and at 7:30 in the morning, we are putting some sort of positive input in, a video usually. Yup. Okay. So I set a reminder every day. So, so Lisa and I get up at 6:00 and, at 7:30, we're all watching something. So this morning, we watched a fantastic Craig Groeschel piece. Actually, it was on thoughts, taking your thoughts captive. But I decided I've got to have my family have the right input if we want the right output as a family. So that's all kinds of things, isn't it? And that can be good things like, like trips, like, like books, like right now we're reading the Mark Batterson book. I think you're having them on, back to The Circle Maker. We, after, after certain days... Now we don't want to get legalistic about this. There's other things that happen. We've got a dance recital. I got this or that, but we're just, we just finished. This is a good one for the, um, for COVID is Hiding Place. It took us forever. Okay. We read. And then it was like three weeks later, we were read it another chapter. But just what are the inputs. Now in your family, you talk a lot about it, of, you know, fun things together and that kind of thing, but those are all inputs and everything is an input. So you just, as much as you might want to put in a fun, one of your fun methods of working out together, you might have to get rid of something. And, it's shocking to me what, what people allow in. And then they expect their family to be this, you know....Jeff Zaugg (25:14):Being a curator does not take rocket science. Like you're able to find these resources. They're free. They're all over YouTube and great, like curating...you're not preparing a talk. You're not writing. Maybe, maybe you are once in a while. You're bringing the original. No, it's, it's not that hard. I think about a dashboard and how, you know, in a, in a cockpit, a plane would have all this dashboard of like, knowing you want to know what things are going well, when you're flying a plane, but also companies I'm working on a dashboard for dadAWESOME. It's like, these are the things that indicate that we're healthy as a ministry. We can reach more dads. We're growing. You're doing the same thing with leaders around is so many areas. But when you think of a dashboard, what, what should we be measuring? You've already talked about many of those factors, but any just top of mind, things as we just kind of brainstorm a dad dashboard of the, these are inputs that would, if measured are going to lead to some great outputs.David Horsager (26:06):Well, Bob Goff yesterday, I was listening to his podcast and he was talking about how quantity time builds quality time. Right? He didn't say it like that, but that, that you can't, you have to have an amount of time. People, people that say as a dad, well, I always, but it's quality when I have it. I make sure it's quality time. Well then is it, and by the way, are you dealing with the toughest issues then? Because quality can happen in the biggest crisis. Right. So, so I think, I dunno what you said that, but that's an easy one to look at is, is some sort of quantity. And then I might get more direct and say, what kind of, what, what kind of things are important? You know, it's like, um, for us that that morning - pouring in. I don't want other people parenting my kids. You know, I said this before, but, um, when I was traveling a lot, I sent a video every morning to my family for a certain time where they would watch that, that video, at home because I don't want other people parenting. I want me doing that even when I'm on the road, I want to put inputs in. So anyway....Jeff Zaugg (27:08):It's a great example. And another one I'll share for you is a getaway weekend where it's actually focused extended time. And I had a chance just to learn a little bit about this from you offline, but this idea of "Becoming a Man Weekend." Is it, was it you and your wife together took him, took your son on that, or who was it?David Horsager (27:25):In this case. What we do when they're a young lady of approaching 12 or 12 or a young man, and we have two of each, so every other and you know, we're this symmetric family. Right? Um, let me tell you all four of those kids are very different, but, um, but basically we get away and we are, it's pretty intentional. It's quite a lot of content actually. So we like to add, uh, even though it's kind of created for a Friday through Sunday, we try to go Thursday, to make it more fun than easier and in a way - very powerful time. But the dad takes the boys in our case and the mom takes the girls, but there is a union with the other spouse at the end. So what happens is, we go, we go through "Pathway to Purity," it's a fantastic curriculum.David Horsager (28:13):And, so that, that aligns with what we're about. You could add other things and we add other thoughts or whatever. I still have one kid that still likes watching my video channel on YouTube. So he'll still watch me, right? So we might add some things, but basically we go through Pathway to Purity, everything about how, you know, these years that are current coming up in middle school and high school and, and all, and, and staying pure. And, and, and just in certain ways, just, just how we want them and hope that they'll be, Right? So, it's got a lot of audio and thankfully we don't have to do it all. So we want to pick a place four hours away. It used to with Isaiah, I took him on a flight and align it with us speaking event. But basically we went up to Lutsen my case, then Lisa took Vanessa to, Lake Michigan or whatever.David Horsager (28:57):So we listened to all this content, and then there's a journal and different activities you do. And it's a really great time. Then we put something fun with it. And, you know, in our case, we went skiing here, and it was nine below zero the morning we got up to go skiing the first time. But, but anyway, that weekend is intentional. Then we come back together and on Sunday evening, we go out for a nice dinner, dressed up, just not all the other kids, just mom and dad and the kid, the 12 year old, and the girls get a, special necklace and the boys get a big Toledo Steel Sword, kind of a King Solomon sword. So, that's hanging on their walls and they kind of make a pledge for their life, how they're going to , hopefully how they're going to date, how they're going to treat women, how they're going to, you know, how they're going to live in other ways too, as, as young men and young women. And, you know, that's, that's, it's not, I don't have the outcomes yet. I mean, we've got 12, 14, 16, 18, but I'll tell you that 18 year old and Vanessa, she's making some great decisions in, in her relationships and who she is. So we'll see what the outcome is as we go or more, you know.Jeff Zaugg (30:14):And I can speak as a, as a son who did not have that as a 12 year old, I did not have that extended - a dad who was willing to go into a topic area that's maybe uncomfortable and then have some fun moments as well, adventure together. And then the special - it's a gift paired with a, like, we're honoring you by doing this meal. Like, the respect shown, the moment created. It's a never forgotten moment. So I, I know my girls, like we're already talking intentionality around what second through fifth grade, how do we bring some of those, some of those same elements, but different way. So I love that you can just share your version of what you just did in January here. And, uh, it's a, it's a big deal.David Horsager (30:51):Really big deal.Jeff Zaugg (30:54):Yeah, it's right before your youngest. Um, well, we're going to land the plane with talking about DMA's, but before that difference, making actions for dads. But before that, I want to talk about your new book, "Trusted Leaders." We're dropping this podcast on launch week for your book. And I've mentioned this back seven months ago, when you're out of like, we gotta get you back on for the book launch, because there's so many parallels, again, trust - being a trusted leader on the home front. Why did you write the book? How, why would it be applicable for a dad?David Horsager (31:20):It's, it's applicable to every, you know, any leader. There's a parable at the first half that really shifts thinking about trust, this Ethan main character and, it's really cool journey, kind of from failure to success. And then the second half of the book is takeaways. You can use tomorrow morning under each of the eight pillars and the pillars of trust framework. You can use tomorrow morning to build trust that this, this, this, so why did we do a couple, couple of different things? One, we kept seeing people think, leaders even think, well, isn't trust something you either have, or you don't. And it's absolutely something you can intentionally build and must. Number two, we kept seeing that trust is the leading indicator in leadership, everything else lags. What do I mean by that?David Horsager (32:08):In business, we talk about leading versus lagging indicators, and we always want to try what leads to more sales this. So then with the lagging indicator would be more sales, right? So what, what leads to it? So well, people say I've got a leadership issue. You never do. The only reason you follow a leader or not is trust. So you increase trust. All of a sudden you become a leader like people follow. We got a sales issue. We never do. The only way to increase sales is increase trust. If we've got a learning issue, the only way to increase learning in a classroom is increased trust in the professor, the content or the classroom. So we have to, when we deal with the trust metric or trust issue, we actually solve the real issue. And of course, in companies we're solving for sales and attrition and retention and culture. But it's the same in dads. If we want to be more effective, we have to increase trust. If we want a voice in your kid's life, we have to increase trust with them. We have that's our, and by the way, if you don't build these pillars in your life to some degree, totally imperfectly, of course, you're not going to trust yourself enough. And that is, that's like the love, your neighbors, yourself, people that don't love themselves at all. How fun are they to be around? They don't have a healthy love of the good in themselves that God created them to be and that's the same with trust. So, so there's, there's, uh, several reasons there, but, but basically the other reason was we kept hearing our audience say, we love Trust Edge ,367 pages. Wall Street Journal bestseller, but I need something quicker, more shareable, more usable. I need to understand the concept and apply it tomorrow. And this is a shorter, just actionable, inspiring, but actionable book that kind of furthers that original work from a decade ago or more.Jeff Zaugg (33:41):Incredible. And we, we know that dad principles, wisdom practices without trust are like putting bandaids on when there's a deeper issue. And as dads, we're just not going to, if we don't have the trust to backup what we're sharing, it's, it's these little, like, I just feel like our, our ability to bring long lasting impact to our kids is non-existent without being trustworthy. And, again, not perfect, as you said. So, so thank you for writing this book. We're going to make sure to send, go ahead.David Horsager (34:11):Yeah, well, Hey, I was just going to say, if you would like it, we also did, you know, this is created for the world that I'm in trying to, trying to, you know, with countries and companies and pro sports teams and whatever, but we created, because, you know, I had this passion about it, this, this module, faith-based module on what God's been saying about trust. So if anybody's interested in that, email us. I don't know where that's held at this moment, but it's a really cool, really amazing piece. It was, is for pastors really around the world that they get this extra module to show, as a trusted leader, how does this work, you know, as a, as a pastor? SoJeff Zaugg (34:49):I know you guys created us a custom, and I don't actually have it on my notes in front of me, but it'll be in all the show notes and I'll put it in the outro of this podcast, the slash dadAWESOME. Yeah, go ahead.David Horsager (34:58):Exactly. Trustedleaderbook.com/dadAWESOMEJeff Zaugg (35:02):So, and we'll have it. We'll, we'll have a channel to that other resource you just mentioned. We'll get that posted there. So it's, again, we're recommending all of our listeners let's grow in this area. And when you joined me for episode 138, I mean, we really, we spent the whole thing on the topic of trust. Today has been a lot of other topics that I was just so curious to talk other dad topics, but, we're going to reference back to that as well. Guys, go back and listen to episode 138 from six or seven months ago. Let's land the plane though here. Difference-making actions as a leader, as a dad, there are some things that have bigger impact. And even if you've already mentioned it, can you just, any last thoughts on how dads can really be difference makers?David Horsager (35:41):Well, there's lots of things I could say about that, but DMA is in our lexicon of Trust Edge Leadership Institute. And I've written on it several times in other books, but is what we see people do is get distracted, have to do lists they're overwhelmed. So they do nothing, right? So everybody in our organization and other organizations we serve, they take out a sticky note every day. We want it non-electronic for a reason. And we take, we've got all these things we could do and should do, but we take out and write one, two, three, four, five. You can't have more than five. What are the difference-making actions today to drive our mission, to do what we're supposed to be called to do today? What are the most important things? And those DMS have to be time sensitive. You have to have a time limit, because otherwise someone says I'm going to do this big thing that I could never do.David Horsager (36:25):They'll never get to any others that usually we want them to be. Um, usually there a minute or two, I mean, many of the most important things people do like writing an appreciation note. Now that would be super powerful. People won't do it. It takes two minutes, but make a call,- you can't have a DMA be longer than two hours. That's max, but normally it's short. So I'm just every day we're sitting in before we start, or the night before a sticky note, even though we still have to do lists and metrics and KPIs, we're thinking DM, what are my DMA's for today? And I would argue, and I have in one of my books, have a DMA list for home and a DMA list for work. What are the difference making actions today? Cause a lot of people do a lot of things that are not difference making at least in positive. Well, I'm going to watch that show with my kid. Really? What if you did this? What's a difference maker. What if you know what I'm going to do? You know, whatever it is. You get, you got to get a difference maker. And that difference maker has to have a number attached for five minutes. I'm going to do 20, these five of those, three of those that makes a DMA and that...Jeff Zaugg (37:27):Incredible. And that this conversation has been filled with examples of DMA's that dads could write to put on their dashboard of their car. Hey, before you go inside, or for me, it'd be like on the laundry room door before I walk up a half flight of stairs to my girls. Like, so, so it's so practical. Any last words before you, I invite you to pray for us.David Horsager (37:46):Oh man. I, I guess I could say all kinds of things. One thing that consistently comes to mind is consistency, which is the final pillar of the Trust Edge Framework. And that is, and this is a dad or a leader, little things done consistently make the biggest difference, not the big things you thought that trip to Disneyworld made all the difference unlikely. Little things done consistently make the biggest difference. And by the way, I would vote for not going to Disney,Jeff Zaugg (38:11):Skip that. I love it.