Matthew Hooper [00:00:02] Life is stretching, and what we need to do is own that that is true and not live in an illusion that life is not that. So life is stretching. If we stay here, there would be elements that would be stretching. If we go, that's going to be stretching and maybe they be more stretching. But the reality is life is stretching. So can we own that as a part of life and just work with that? Intro [00:00:37] Welcome to dadAWESOME. You've joined a movement of intentional Christian dads who are adding life to the dad life. Thanks for taking a courageous step towards learning and growing and being mentored as you become DadAWESOME for your kids. On this podcast, my dad, Jeff Zaugg, interviews intentional dads from all around the world as he explores the path of becoming DadAWESOME. Jeff Zaugg [00:01:10] What's up, guys? Welcome back to DadAWESOME. This is Episode one hundred and eighty. And we've got Matthew Hooper joining us this week for the first half of the conversation with him. We'll go a little shorter episodes this summer because it's summer. You've got fun things to do with your kids. So I'm going to give you about a 20 minute episode this week and about another 20 minute next week. This conversation was so rich, so packed with actionable dad wisdom that we were like, let's break it into two parts. So today, episode 180, Matthew Cooper, friend of - two of my friends, were like, you've got to connect with. He's from Northern California. We did this interview through Zoom. But this conversation, it's got so many takeaways. I'm so thankful that you're joining us. And just a quick reminder, if you're not getting text messages from DadAWESOME, we want to know nudge. You guys want to be a resource that helps move you in the direction of becoming DadAWESOME just simply text this number 651-370-8618.  Just text the word "DAD," and we'll keep you in the loop. Just encouraging nudges towards intentionality that number more time is six five one three seven zero eighty six eighteen. Again, I'm so thankful you're joining us this week. Let's jump right into part one, the first half of my conversation with Matthew Whooper. But it's a fun set question, jumping into adventure and specifically this adventure you took your family on. And so as you kind of introduce your age of your kids and in the season your dad life, could you kind of set the stage for the adventure that you had you were on last year? Matthew Hooper [00:02:48] Yeah. So it all started when I turned 50 and we were on a vacation in Hawaii, Oahu, for my 15th birthday, just my wife and I and our three kids. And it it actually was a vacation versus a family trip because our kids are old enough right now where it actually felt like a vacation rather than I'm managing a little people running around and just home like home, but in a different location. You know, I have Jeff Zaugg [00:03:16] no idea what it would feel like. I'm very much in the management of little people. Matthew Hooper [00:03:19] So, yes, it was a sweet trip. We were there. One of the things that my wife and I do often is just walk together. It's the number one activity for my wife and I to cultivate our connection is walking together as frequently as we can on a walk. We kind of had a vision of, hey, this next year, this was pre-COVID this next year, why don't we do something a little different? Why don't we, like, be a little bit more mobile if we can? Because my job is I could work wherever I am and because it's virtual, it's virtually based. So I'm like, why don't we do something? So we started envisioning that we got home covid hit and that kind of threw all of our plans to travel more even overseas and just kind of threw a big ringer into our plans. Well, sometime shortly after that, we started thinking about what? About doing something like a like a longer term trailer, you know, SUV trailer trip. So we just started kind of walking with that. Could we do that? Is that even possible? What would that look like? And the ball just started rolling like, hey, this is good. We're going to home, school, our kids. After a few months of doing school at home, we're like, hey, why don't we're going to we don't know what the fall is going to look like. Let's like let's kind of turn the tide on, kind of like just this season and like, let's do something unique and different. And that started us down a path of pursuing this four month, forty eight state SUV trailer trip around the country where I was meeting with some clients where I could around the country because I have clients all over the country, but meeting with clients, doing some workshops, but then also, you know, connecting with family and friends as we went and trying to be really covid savvy and careful, but also not let what was happening in our country totally just lock us into a. The pattern of life and behavior that that we didn't necessarily have to stand like we could be safe and be mobile has gone up social distancing and like in our little pod, in our little trailer the whole time, you know, it's like it was safer to go, you know, because we were maybe that's not true. Jeff Zaugg [00:05:43] But I paint the picture, though. It's a large SUV and a travel trailer. How big of a travel trailer like and how many of you are on this trip? Matthew Hooper [00:05:51] Yeah. So we there was six of us on this trip, my wife and I and our three kids, Annie, who was 14 at the time. Brianna, who was, what, 12, and then Jarrin, who is eight. And then my niece, who is 19. She was on the trip with us as well. And and so and then what we ended up choosing was an SUV a Ford Expedition. And that was it's called a max a little bit longer. And it had this heavy duty towing package so we could tell a little more weight. But we actually got to like a well with the tongue. It's like a twenty seven foot outback ultra light travel trailer. So it could sleep seven. But I mean, the actual box of the trailer is more like twenty five feet. So we, we were like packed in there pretty tightly. So the one thing my 15 year old says is like I would never do a trip like that again in that trailer, that one, you know, so we were like we were like tight, tight in in there. But but we kind of needed to do that to like, maximize our kind of like our towing capacity. Just the best setup was a little bit smaller trailer. We could we could make it work and feel so great about it when we were driving and safe. And and and so that was kind of the the... Jeff Zaugg [00:07:23] That's the yeah. That's the setup. And I'm going to come back around to it. Go Rapid Fire, like practical tips for a family that decides to hit the road. But to go go after. I know there's the practical side of what you buy. How do you prepare, how do you pack, how do you approach travel, how many nights in each place? All that stuff. But then there's the heart preparation. And this is what this is what came up from our mutual friend Skip a couple of times. And Austin, they were like, they're they're like they mapped out the forty eight states, but they also had another version of maps. And I was in and I love this. You said you said this, you said we chose four principles to order our thoughts and decisions. And I think this is important. Even if a family is not hitting the road, there's a lot of transferable principles here. Do we choose or do we fall into our principles that guide us right to order our thoughts and decision making? So so you guys, was this your idea or your wife's idea to kind of take some principles? Matthew Hooper [00:08:12] Yeah. So this is this was this was my my idea. And it actually came bubbled out through a conversation with a friend who I meet with over Skype. We've been meeting together actually for gosh sixteen, seventeen years now, almost weekly. It was in person at first, now it's over Skype, but it came out of a conversation with him as we were just talking about, like, OK, what what should be ordering? Well, I mean, how should we do this, you know? And so there was four kind of principles that we decided upon that would order our our trip. What we would practically do, and it was the first was missional that would be kind of about the kingdom and just bringing. Christ's kind of love and and the peace and joy and life of the kingdom, wherever we went outside of us, but even kind of with us, because this is this is going to be a challenging journey for sure, something we'd never done before. Like I'd never driven a trailer before getting this trailer. So it was like new a new experience for us all. So Missional was the first ordering principle. Jeff Zaugg [00:09:27] Second, I'll just interrupt you for a moment to dial in on missional for your eight year old son, because I just think about like like what degree was that already a family principal before you hit the road? Or was this actually kind of a new clarification of this is how we live like it was new for your eight year old or something you'd already talked about? You know, Matthew Hooper [00:09:46] I mean, I think the word missional I think was new, but our life, yeah, it it was more it more flowed out of who we are as a family, even as moving from Southern California to Northern California, which is where we live now. Four years ago now, that was a missional pursuit, meaning we really experienced. And there's a whole story behind this God like moving us in very concrete ways, directing us to move and is very clear. And so we've we with our kids. I mean, this is how my wife and I are living and we're inviting them into that journey with us, that we're going to be missional with our lives. And so God may lead us somewhere differently. And that may be hard. Yeah. And we want to be open to God, either leaving leading us some somewhere differently or staying. But we want to be open and being missional meaning just seeking for the kingdom and how we do life like the first order of things. So he so it fit with he would say like that's a different word for what we're already doing and kind of what our kids know about how we're going to live life. Yeah. Jeff Zaugg [00:10:59] Yeah. OK, so missional purposeful was the first one. What's the second Matthew Hooper [00:11:02] one dimensional being missional kind of purpose filled. The second was adventurists, meaning to kind of push ourselves to do things we weren't normally doing, like hiking up some trail we've never been on and then going a different way down, which was kind of like unsure and scary, like let's just keep being adventurous and having fun, you know, enjoying that as we do, but pushing ourselves out of our comfort zones. That was the adventurous. And the third thing was positivity, like, hey, if we're going to be missional and adventurous, we need to stay positive because we know that at some point this this experience is going to be which is the s stretching, stretching. And and we're choosing to be stretched by going on this trip already. Right. So we already are in a stretch. So let's try to maintain positivity. Jeff Zaugg [00:11:57] And that's what your kids are like. Well, maybe we should stretch this RV and done a two hundred thousand dollar travel trailer. Matthew Hooper [00:12:02] Yes, exactly. Especially our 15 year old's like what were you thinking, you know, it's like there is this idea that life is stretching and what we need to do is own that that is true and not live in an illusion that life is not that. So life is stretching. If we stayed here, there would be elements that would be stretching about that. If we go, that's going to be stretching and maybe even be more stretching. But the reality is life is stretching. So can we own that as a part of life and just work with that, you know, and and embrace it like life is stretching and circumstances happen that impact us. We choose things that sometimes go well, sometimes don't. Life is stretching. Let's not live in an illusion that it's not, especially in a fallen world. Yeah. And all that's happening around us and our culture, whatever this is, life is changing. So embrace it, you know. Jeff Zaugg [00:13:09] Well, and part of a posture of embracing is, I know kind of a core virtue of yours, which you wrote the daily - You talked about the daily pursuit of humility as the highest virtue for human growth and spiritual flourishing. So I want you to actually talk even bigger than just humility about flourishing and specifically dads thinking about dads flourishing and and how that might weave in with this idea of stretching it. Can you just kind of expound a little bit on those on those themes around fatherhood? Matthew Hooper [00:13:38] Yeah. Oh, you're kind of you're going big here, brother, so. Well, first, I would say we we were made to flourish. So when you tilt your mind and heart toward flourishing with your intense thinking and your intentions, you are aligning with the power of God's image in us and for Christ followers and the power of the Spirit in us and between us in terms of his his community as people. So flourishing is about entering into reality. That is there already for us. And we we just need to tilt our intention towards that. And I think it starts with, I would say like a mindset, a growth mindset, like I'm intended to flourish here. So what do I need then? In order to do that and this, I would say for dads, it's like. You want your kids to flourish, you want your wife to flourish. How about we start with you? And are you doing and choosing what you need to do to to be a flourishing human person as a as a man and as a husband, as a father, so it's like flourishing for your family or people around you. It starts with you. So I would just say dads hear the call if if you want people to flourish or to be the best dad you can be. How about you start with you and you just focus on what that looks like for you and getting what you need. What do you need in order to flourish? What's getting in the way of flourishing, which is kind of, you know, leans in, tilts into the reality of kind of sin and human brokenness and bad thoughts and behaviors and like, what do you need to do? What is what? And so having a mindset of flourishing, what's the vision of that? What does that look like? What could that be? And then what do you need to to move towards that? That's what I would say. Flourishing for family as dads begins with you, Dad. Are you flourishing? Are you flourishing? Jeff Zaugg [00:15:57] So and I know for me, one of the block the blocks to flourishing has been a mind game and a heart game that is actually rooted in some some pride and arrogance of wanting wanting to be perceived or have like like seen as I have it together. So a lack of like, it really, I reject some growth because I, I choose to even if it's just like it's internal. But it's a posture of like I don't want to be found out. I don't want to be found out. Right? And I'd love for you. I mean you can you can coach me for a moment here, but also just even like expounding on what are what are some of the other things that you think dads are saying, like are stopping us from stepping towards that flourishing? Matthew Hooper [00:16:41] Yeah. Well, being being seeking to be perceived either by others, but I think first and foremost by yourself, a certain way that's different than the reality of who you are. I'm like, I mean, you can't get much deeper than that. I mean, that to me is at the heart of humility, which is and from my point of view, primarily about seeing ourselves accurately in relation to ourselves, God and others. Are we seeing what's true, what's reality, and that at the more we are able to see and embrace reality, which means our limitations, even just what you said, like I'm concerned about how I'm doing myself or the kind of the the gap between the real and the ideal. I want to live more in the ideal or show more of the ideal or think I'm more the ideal than I actually am. That's going to get in the way of a lot. So I would say that's that's primary. The second thing which is in my mind would just be be your your your your ability to enter into vulnerable. Spaces of vulnerability. I mean, if you can't do that or if you choose not to do that, I would say you can't do that. So if you have a lifestyle of choosing not to be more vulnerable about the reality, you know, humility. Precedes vulnerability and then they start having a kind of a dialectic with one another, the more vulnerable you are, the more humble you can be, because hopefully that when you're vulnerable, you receive good things when you're vulnerable, and that helps you to be more honest about yourself and so on and so forth, that I think vulnerability would be the next like you as a man being being more vulnerable about what you actually think and feel and how you view yourself even you know, I'm fifty one right now. And as a dad, like, I don't ever expect to be in a place where I'm not working on something or I'm not failing and having to own it, like I'm just more at a place in life where that's, the goal is to not fail, is to not not fail. OK, the goal is, is to when I misstep because I have a tummy ache or like I'm I'm frustrated about something over here and it comes out over here, you know that I am quick to own it. And then humble myself and then be vulnerable, even with my kids, like, hey, I'm sorry that I responded like that was wrong of me and will you forgive me? And kind of working through that with them on a day in, day out basis, which, by the way, on that trailer trip, there were multiple times where I was like pushed beyond my stretching limitations, I would just say. And I had to kind of own it and back up and OK, what happened? How can I avoid that, try to avoid that in the future and then just keep owning it when it when it got messy? I would say those I would say those two things. Jeff Zaugg [00:19:54] And we we talk often about the value of counseling. Go see, go see a Christian counselor vulnerability in that area. We also talk and that takes a lot of courage. We cheer our dads to be courageous, to go meet with a counselor best one hundred twenty five bucks an hour or whatever. It costs your right. It's so worth it. And then the other thing we encourage is just brotherhood is like, let's get out for for me was two nights ago on a paddle board after the kids went to bed, if the girls went to bed without a paddle board at the buddy being very real, which is funny on the water, your voices can travel a long way. Yeah, but would you say on this topic of flourishing, topic of humility, topic of ownership, these topics that were kind of just hitting the very surface level right now, are there any if there was a book or two or other next steps that I didn't mention that I haven't that I haven't said anything about any anything you're like this is something you could take a next step in these areas. Matthew Hooper [00:20:48] Well, in terms of books like some of the writings of John Townsend and Henry Cloud have been really significant for me. Some of the earliest books for Cloud was "Changes that Heal." For Townsend, it was Hiding from Love. I'm like, hey, why don't you just start there? Because those books give you a snapshot into a perspective on who we are in our character based on like four developmental capacities that they outline, both from in kind of different ways in those two books, Changes that Heal, Hiding from Love, I think those would be a great books to start with to get you thinking more deeply about your heart in a biblically integrated, with kind of psychological insight and perspective, like it's an integrated perspective where they're taken rich, kind of biblical theological perspective and and psychological insight, kind of wedding that together in a way that I think I mean, that's it was very, very helpful for me early on in my growth journey as a person and then ultimately as a husband and then dad. Jeff Zaugg [00:21:59] Yes. Well, we're going to I'm going to take us back deep in a few moments here. Let's go let's pan back for a moment. And before we get away from the travel trailer, when you say you just have four or five minutes to pass on your stop, you're filled up gas, you got the rig and then the stands like, I want to do that someday. I want to travel with my family, give me some high level starting points, some tips, some tricks, some hacks. Like what are some of the things that you learned in those four months of traveling? Forty eight states that you're like, I'd pass this on to a Dabis. Consider it. Matthew Hooper [00:22:30] Yeah, get on the same page with your number one. Traveler, copilot, your wife might get on the same page if you're not on the same page. I mean, the hardest parts of our trailor trip were when my wife and I see what we were like, intention or like. Just have a different expectations you know, when we when we got mixi, then things start getting unstable, you know, so so I would just say, you know, from the start, you know, how do you stay with your spouse and making decisions and defining like what? What you do this. I'll do this. And kind of like working together to kind of navigate doing all you need to do to make a trailer trip like this happen like I needed to. And so you get on the same page with one another and then make choices daily to stay on the same page. That means you have a daily connection like we would be walking together. So I would just say, that to me is like number one. Jeff Zaugg [00:23:43] Thank you so much for joining us for Episode One Hundred and eighty. The conversation notes the action steps, the transcripts are going to be at DadAWESOME.org/180. So you'll be in the loop there, that text message one more time if you want to be in the loop with text messages from DadAWESOME, the DadAWESOME nudge. Just simply text 651-370-8618. Just text the word "DAD" to that number and you'll be in the loop. Guys praying for you. Have an amazing start to July as we head into the heat of the summer. Have fun with your kids. Thanks for listening today. Thanks for saying, Man, I'm going to be a dad who adds life to the dad life.