Episode 249 (Chris Bruno)Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'll give it my all.Jeff Zaugg: [00:00:39] This is episode 249 of dadAWESOME and my name is Jeff Zaugg. Guys, I am so thankful that you're listening today. I thought I'd give you a quick, just peek at my world. My family, we're traveling the country on the dadAWESOME RV tour. So we're living in an RV. We are homeschooling. It's going to be about a nine month trip. I'm in Southern California right now as I record this introduction and I'm in a truck stop. My girls are doing a homeschool day with my wife. I'm by myself in the RV doing a little transition day from Orange County, California, down to San Diego. And I'm in a truck stop in the air conditioning is not working. I am just sweating like crazy, but here I am recording this introduction to episode 249. So I'm thinking about you guys. I'm praying for you, in the heat right now, and I'm not asking you guys to feel bad for me. I'm in Southern California. I was at the beach yesterday. But it is funny, sometimes, how you just find places and times and and today it's at a truck stop that I'm recording this intro. So anyways, that's my world. Today, though, Chris Bruno, he was on for a two part episode a year ago, I'll link those conversations in the show note. Chris Bruno is the co-founder of Restoration Project. They are our local partner in the front range of Colorado. So he's in Fort Collins, Colorado. He also founded Restoring Counseling, Restoration Counseling Center. Man, his heartbeat is to go after the hearts of men and women, help us live out of our story, our story is powerful but live in freedom out of our story. Use our story, our testimony to bring power forward, not pain forward. Guys, today's conversation is so good and he just launched his new book, Sage, about two months ago. We're going to talk about that in the conversation, but let's jump right in. This is my conversation, episode 249, with Chris Bruno. Chris, this is, this is round two on the dadAWESOME podcast. Welcome back.Chris Bruno: [00:02:44] Thanks. It's great to be with you, Jeff.Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:46] So a year ago we talked about a rafting trip together. A year ago, you and the Restoration Project community just kind of came around the Fathers for the Fatherless ride. We launched the thing. Now here in a few days, we're going round two, biking 100 miles again. And it's fun to be back in the Front Range. We're in Fort Collins right now and you're trying to talk me to moving here, is that right?Chris Bruno: [00:03:08] I am trying to talk you into moving here. It is a great place to live. Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:12] Actually, I feel like from the last year and a half of of knowing you, I've been thinking more about Ireland instead of the front range. What would you say? Would you say move to Colorado or move to Ireland?Chris Bruno: [00:03:22] Oh, they're very different places, Jeff, very different places. Ireland and Scotland, they definitely have my heart and in a certain way. And the the Front Range here has it in a different way. So both are good. I think heaven is going to be either a cabin in the mountains of Colorado or a cottage on the Scottish coast. So I'm not sure which.Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:45] Well, I had two ways I wanted to start this conversation. One of them was the concept of my drive here to your office. So we're here at Restoration Counseling in Fort Collins, and I'm actually staying at an RV park in Loveland, but a little bit towards Estes Park from Loveland. So we're up along the creek, up towards that beautiful gorge. And so my Google Maps gave me two options to get here. I have the option that's 28 minutes, which is through Loveland or I had the option that was 33 minutes, which is through Horse Tooth, beautiful. Which one do you think I chose?Chris Bruno: [00:04:16] Horse Tooth, I hope. Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:17] I know. I did. I did. It was, I mean, it's breathtaking, it's awe inspiring. But I think the dad life, I think there's a lot of parallels to that decision of which route am I going to take? The route that's the shortest point A to point B, or is there margin to take the route of beauty to see what's around us? And I just thought maybe you could take that concept and go wherever you want with it. But just talking to the dads, any any just observations or reflections on that decision?Chris Bruno: [00:04:44] I love that question. And I love that you took the longer route and you just said an important word, and that was the word, margin. And here's where I would go with that word. Is it was it margin or was it choice? That we actually don't think often that we have as many choices as we do. And then we feel the rush, we feel the need to get there fast. You know, in your example for, you know, for example, but just the idea of like, no, we actually have choice on how we are going to inhabit this life.Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:13] Yep.Chris Bruno: [00:05:14] And so will we choose the life that goes through the beauty, that goes through the slow road that goes in that way. And yes, it requires some whitespace in our time frames and all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, if you had been 5 minutes late because you chose that route, I would not have been mad.Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:34] That's fascinating because I am I'm an on time guy, but I know that about you, that 5 minutes would have been no big deal. We got an hour and a half together here. I still only made the decision because I had, I actually left early enough. Chris Bruno: [00:05:47] Because you had the margin. And that's the thing, like even if you don't have the margin, will you make the choice?Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:52] Willing to disappoint, to step into maybe beauty or step into a pause that's needed.Chris Bruno: [00:05:58] Well, even in that, will you even disappoint or will I join you in the joy that you experienced in taking that other route and give you quote unquote margin, when you're actually giving me margin because I get to celebrate and enjoy something that I wouldn't have, had you not gone that route.Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:16] But I have to share. One, I have to share the fact versus just keep that to myself and two, I have to kind of make the decision that that and trust the person that I'm going to be with is going to be, join me in my joy.Chris Bruno: [00:06:30] Yes, yes. Absolutely.Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:34] That's really helpful. Second random story happened yesterday, here in Fort Collins, I was out for a bike ride with two friends, and I got a flat tire and they took me to the trek dealer in town. They said, so I was able to pump it up enough, it's tubeless tires. I know very little about bikes, even though I run part of our ministry Fathers for the Fatherless bike ride, I still know very little. It's a seven week old bike, having the same flat but tubeless, it kind of the fluid inside the tire fills the hole and then it solidifies and you can keep biking on it even if you have a flat. So I had this happen, had happened two times on Saturday. Decided to keep going, so that sealed up and I had two more flats on Monday, yesterday. So I took it to the trek dealer, brought it inside and they hooked it to the compressor and they saw right on there it says 97 PSIs, the max. And they hooked it up and they went to blow up the tire, I'm standing two feet away from the tire and the tire exploded. And by exploded it was the most intense bang. Like it threw the person next to me, it was louder than a gunshot. It threw her bike out of her hand. It crashed the floor. Everyone in the store is holding their ears like pain, pain. This trek dealer, the bike store's probably been there 20, 30 years. I don't know if they've ever had an incident like this, because tubeless, instead of just popping a tire, it flayed the tire wide open. And they looked because they thought it bent the frame of the bike, that's how impactful it was. They gave me two brand new tires, $250 worth of new bike tires, because of that, their accident, they messed it up. So the reason I share this whole story, this was a like time stood still for 10 to 15 seconds. We looked at each other like a bomb just went off in the store. It was shocking and their level of I mean, their experts, this should have never happened. What we learned later is tubeless tires, even though they say 97 PSI, they actually can only go to 60. I did not know this. They, the guy working, did not know this. The owner of the store did, he explained it to us later. So the reason I bring up this story is I think the dad life in that story have a lot of parallels where, you know, we think that we can go to this level, we think that the tire can handle, but then there is a blow up and this kind of gets us towards midlife crisis that we see some, sadly, we see some people, their kids go off to college and life blows up. We see that this or that causes a blow up. And I was curious from that story, I'm taking a long time to set it up. Chris, what just reflections from the explosion, the pain that could have been caused, I could have my daughters next to me. I mean, that would have been it could have been a hospital visit. Like if my little daughter's were next to me, because it was right there. Which is like reaction or thoughts around dad's? Any, any just things that your like, man, I'd want to go here with that direction?Chris Bruno: [00:09:17] Wow. What a horrible and awesome story. What a, what a thing to walk through. So many thoughts, Jeff. So first of all, the idea of a tubeless tire. Like all of the great innovations in the world, all of the great technology that we have to make these things happen, and yet they still fail. And so the first thought that I have is like there is an expectation that the better the quality and the more the technology that there will not be as much failure. And that's where I'm like, Dad's, you're going to fail. No matter how awesome red, leader, like incredible, intentional dad you are, you are going to fail. And it's going to be bad. So I don't say that as like a doomsday guy. I see that as like, can you expect that things are not always going to go well.Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:28] We're going to fall on our face.Chris Bruno: [00:10:29] We're going to fall on our face and maybe there's going to be some collateral damage. And what will you do in that moment?Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:37] In the vulnerable moment?Chris Bruno: [00:10:38] In the vulnerable moment when you're standing around for those 10, 15 seconds with your hands over your ears wondering what just happened. Because I feel like so many of us, like we do so much to mitigate the failure that when it happens, we're so confused. And yet we live in a broken and fallen world where rust and exploding tires exist. Can we not expect that that's going to happen? And then when we do, can we go, that happened, rather than I am an utter and horrible failure.Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:11] Yeah. So it's an incident. It's a it's a occasion. It's a choice that led to something but it's not who I am.Chris Bruno: [00:11:17] Exactly. And I feel like those kinds of failures in the deadline for actually opportunity for us to show our true colors, to really be like, yes, I am human to. And however much I try to be a superhero dad and however much I try to, you know, know what I'm doing and have my act together, the even if that's the case, I am going to fail because I think one of the things we need to teach our children is not how to avoid failure, but how to navigate it.Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:45] Yeah, it's coming.Chris Bruno: [00:11:48] It's coming.Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:49] And does it, yeah, how to navigate its verses and then also, what are they going to feel for me when they fail?Chris Bruno: [00:11:58] Yes. And I think teaching them how to navigate is them is teaching them how to navigate, is to show them how I navigate it and what I do with my flat tire and what I do with my explosion and how I recover from that. I am in the midst of that. What I learn from that. And then how I move on.Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:20] Yeah.Chris Bruno: [00:12:21] Because you got back on your bike and I assumed you rode.Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:23] I got to ride home with my two new tires. You know, I, actually though, your reflection makes me want to go back to that dealer, which I think I could have time before I leave town, and just put my arm around the guy who exploded, because he's a younger staff. And I was shaken up and I was a little bit like worried because it's a seven week old bike, that I saved for a long time for and I don't think that I showed him the care. I think he was at a really vulnerable place. And that's interesting that I could actually father, I was 15 years older than him and I think I missed an opportunity there, so thank you for...Chris Bruno: [00:12:56] Well, just even the what you just said, vulnerability is actually an opportunity. To be in those vulnerable places is a great opportunity to who will you be in the midst of the failure?Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:06] And I kind of went I looked at myself and what am I going to get, how are they going to make this right versus to taking the moment of failure and thinking about others? So, that's I did not think you were going to go that direction with the story and I'm very thankful, Chris. Very thankful.Chris Bruno: [00:13:21] Well, I'm glad you got some new tires because you have a 100 mile bike ride in a couple of days. You need to be ready, Jeff.Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:26] And we added from last year just for this will be coming out after the ride happens, but we added about an extra thousand feet of climbing.Chris Bruno: [00:13:34] Yeah the route is not an easy route.Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:36] It's gnarly and beautiful. It's so worth it. And actually there's a lot of parallels there.The decision to add the climb is the same route that I drove here. So when I was talking about beauty, it's my second drive, and that route, I'm just trying to drive as much as possible, partially to prepare myself psychologically to actually bike it. I'm going to drive it a few more times. But that does lead to you made a decision this last year and your team around you at Restoration Project said, Hey, let's send you across the pond to Ireland to write a book. And this is, so I just turned 40 since we were together last, I turned 40 in February and which is a reflective time moment. But you're turning 50, did your birthday...Chris Bruno: [00:14:17] This coming February.Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:18] Oh, it is? Okay. That's right. We're just a yeah, we're, what would that be, nine years apart. Okay, so talk about just the birthday coming up. Talk about the concept of like there's a body of work that you've just been invested for decades. The hearts of men. Why did you choose to take this trip? And what was like the, man, I think there's something here, I'm going to mind something out. Will you talk about the book?Chris Bruno: [00:14:42] Yeah, absolutely. So the book that I wrote is called Sage: A Man's Guide into His Second Passage, right. So I started my journey in exploring the ideas for myself, not for my clients, because I've done that before, but for myself when I turned 40, so this is about a decade ago. And some friends and I, we were sitting around a campfire and we were talking about what are we going to do to commemorate 40? Several of us had already turned 40, you know, 42, 43. One of us was turning 40 and we decided, hey, we're going to we're going to do something epic. We're going to go over to Scotland and have this like epic man trip and do some fun outdoor things, but then also think about it in like entering the beginning stages of our second half.Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:28] Yeah.Chris Bruno: [00:15:29] Right? So, we did that in 2016.Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:33] Oh, wow. Okay.Chris Bruno: [00:15:34] It was about, you know, it was a while ago.Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:36] Six or seven years ago.Chris Bruno: [00:15:37] Yeah. Whatever it is now. I can't math.Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:39] It's the end of the day, end of the day.Chris Bruno: [00:15:41] So we did that and it was at that point, Jeff, that I began to really explore like, what does it mean for me to be in the second half of my life and enter in with open eyes and with some level of sobriety to my own life, my mortality. But more than what I was looking ahead to, I was looking backwards to what have I done? Where have I been? And is this the script that I actually want to keep living, or are there some other ways that I would like to exist as a man in the world and as a father in the world? And so in this last decade, my children, I have three kids, have you know, a decade is a long time for a kid. So a lot has changed in the last decade of my life. I mean, I started this decade with a 12 year old and I ended this decade with a 22 year old. There's a vast difference in, in that and that, you know, the other kids along the way, too. So I wanted to engage that part of my own life and my own story and I knew that I needed to be in a place where the geography and the topography matched the landscape of my heart. And I explored all different kinds of places in the United States, and it was, I knew, just kind of team and schedule and calendar wise. January was going to be the time.Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:54] Minnesota, you should come to Minnesota in January.Chris Bruno: [00:16:57] Yeah, so here's the thing, the places that were the cheapest to go in January were the coldest. Where no one wants to go.Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:06] Is Ireland one of them? Is it also not very visited?Chris Bruno: [00:17:09] It is not very visited at all. It's not incredibly cold, but is very tumultuous. So I chose the furthest western tip of the furthest western peninsula on Ireland in a small little village where I got an Airbnb for the month. And you can't go further west. The little pub, I was in a 100 person village, the pub that I was in or in the village was the only establishment in the entire village, and it's the furthest western pub in Europe. You can't go further out into the Wild Atlantic, right? And January is wet and rainy and windy and there are there are some sun days for sure but most of the time it's just really tumultuous. And I felt like, Jeff, that that landscape was the landscape of life. And I needed to be in that kind of landscape in order for me to explore those places from my own heart but then also began to articulate for other men what it felt like in a way that felt real and authentic and true and, and relatable.Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:14] And some of that story we did cover in the two part episode we did a year ago, we will link back to, so I won't have you retell all of those, but it's interesting because our couple of years of knowing each other, I, like you, don't strike me as like someone who's living this tumultuous, like, like storm filled, like, it just, that's how you strike me. But I know your story is filled with those moments. How would you, like you're looking back, you're looking forward, the project like thinking around your birthday and turning 50, would you go in a little deeper to like, why the name Sage? Why, like, just go a little deeper into the story for the book?Chris Bruno: [00:18:54] Yeah. So this is my third book. My first, one of my first books is called Man Maker Project, right? And this is about a journey that I was on with my son as I was ushering him from boyhood to manhood. I say all that because it feels like I discovered, for myself, that there is not just one passage in a man's life that there are two. And so kind of the tagline for the book is that if the task of the first passage, when you go from boy to man, the task of the first passage is to find the man within the boy and call him forth.Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:30] Yes.Chris Bruno: [00:19:31] The task of the second passage is to find the boy within the man and bring him home. And there is a part of all of us, as adult men, where there are still younger parts living inside of us and I'm sure that there is a little boy in you that comes out when you get on your bike. And, you know, I have a jeep and there's a little boy in me that comes out with a jeep. But think about when you go, you know, home to your parents house for Thanksgiving and how young you feel. And maybe your, your wife or your children are like, what happened to you? Like, you just defaulted back to a guy that I don't know, that feels really young. That is the part of you that as a sage, you need to become familiar with again and bring that part of you home, reintegrate him back into yourself. Because the sage is a man who has done that work to reintegrate so that he can be at home with himself, so that he can be even more at home in the world.Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:34] Yes. The second part of that, it really does feel like our last conversation was more about like entering our own story for our own healing and benefit. And the work you've done with Sage, in my reading and my exploring this book, is it feels like it's for others. Is that, is that correct?Chris Bruno: [00:20:52] Yes. So the word sage, we don't use that word a lot. You know, there's sage is like a herb.Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:59] Yeah, right.Chris Bruno: [00:21:00] Most people know it as an herb. Actually, it is an older English word and it means an elder, means an elder. And even in like the Bible times, it was the elder season of a man's life that they considered the pinnacle of manhood. That it wasn't when he was when he became a father, wasn't when he was the king or the warrior or any of those other stages of a man's life, it was when he was the elder, or the sage. And, and the reason for that is because if he is an elder, than he is a pylon of society, that when there is a society full of sages, there is groundedness, there is containment, there is wisdom, there is guidance, there is an unflappability to who he is. There is a generous hospitality that he exudes around him. There is a subtle-ness to a sage. And when sages don't exist in society, that's where we get all the opposites of that, right? We get uncontainment and we get lack of wisdom and we don't get guidance and we don't have the guardrails. And I just that's a super important part of why I want, when I become an even older man that I am now, that's the kind of man that I want to be.Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:16] So I think of this reflection, this past six, seven months of being 40 and thinking of it as a turning into a new chapter. Yet I don't feel like sage or like people looking to me for wisdom. I feel like I get that on the home front for sure. I get the opportunity to speak in and my my little girls are looking to me, but yet I want to be walking a path that will prepare me.Chris Bruno: [00:22:40] Yes.Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:40] So that someday I'm not settling. Instead, like it's funny to use the word settled. Settled can be really positive, but settling, I think I read it talking about like actually stepping into unfaithfulness. Would you talk about the difference between settling mindset and a settled heart?Chris Bruno: [00:22:58] Yeah, what a great question. When I think of the word, I'm going as I'm going to settle, means that I'm going to just, like, throw up my hands and accept whatever comes and be like, I guess this is the destiny of my life and it's this, there's a sense of resignation in that word. To me, I'm just going to settle or I'm settling for X, Y, Z. But to be a settled man is someone who becomes familiar with contentment, becomes familiar with like, hey, I, I know the places of suffering. I know the places of agony. I know the places of great delight and joy and celebration. I know that landscape and so I can be with you wherever you are and you can ground yourself in my presence, because, because we're going to be okay. Because I've been to some of those places myself and even if it doesn't feel good, I know, I know myself and I know the one who is actually the most settled. And, you know, obviously that's God himself.Jeff Zaugg: [00:24:02] Yeah. So immediately, my heart just jumped to a couple conversations with my wife recently where she brought up something that's kind of heavy, stressful. She's emotional around this topic, and I don't feel like I was settled at all in those moments. I think instead I was reactive, defensive. I didn't come to her with is settled confident or grounded and in my daughter saw some of those interactions. And what would your kind of advice, coaching, guidance be for me around living into a more settled confidence? Any, any just thoughts?Chris Bruno: [00:24:39] I would say, Jeff, that to approach that experience that you just had, rather than approaching it with some level of contempt or disgust for how you were, approach it with the level of curiosity for what was going on behind the scenes for you. What got unsettled for you? And then how can you tend to those parts of you that felt like they were a little disrupted? And ask the Lord, ask yourself, journal, ask a friend, ask your wife for feedback on that part of you and and wonder about that rather than come at it with like, I messed up in being unsettled. Because I think the more that we reflect on the places that we're unsettled, the more we can move into the places of being settled.Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:24] Wow. So it's not like, and we actually are seeing a marriage counselor right now, which has been super helpful. But like your answer of just like, no just be curious, that sounds kind of chi... like in a fun way, a childish like let's be curious here. Why, why was that? I've actually heard you reflect on being childlike and the benefits of a childlike approach versus a I'm an adult. Would you go into that that theme a little further?Chris Bruno: [00:25:52] Yes. Well, I mean, there's in Mark chapter 10, there's a beautiful interchange that that Jesus has with his disciples and with people. And this, the people around him, they're bringing children to Jesus and it's a, it's a, some translations actually say that Jesus becomes irate with them. Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:13] When they were trying to move the kids away?Chris Bruno: [00:26:14] When they're trying to move the kids away. And he's like, No, no, no, no, bring the children. And in fact, the way that you enter the kingdom is by becoming like a child in the vulnerability, the innocence, the naivety, the willingness to laugh and play and be silly and be curious about what is happening for the child part of you that might have reacted to your wife in that moment. And so I feel like that is actually the ushering of us into a settled kingdom, if I can put it that way.Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:49] Yeah. That makes me jump back into the invitation that this next chapter is bringing, the boy home. I mean, you were explaining that, I actually thought about some of the negative aspects that come out when I'm back home and, like, letting down of some responsibility and then waiting for my mom to cook for me, and like, there's that side as well. But would you help me understand the, the process, what you see as the process of bringing the boy home?Chris Bruno: [00:27:18] Let me share one of my own personal stories. Okay, so totally unrelated to being in Ireland and writing Sage, I went to the doctor at the beginning of this summer and there were some test results that came back from some blood results where I had, you know, higher cholesterol, which kind of runs in my family and higher glucose. And and here I am, you know, staring down the barrel of age 50 and I was like, I've got to do something here because my dad had several heart attacks shortly after turning 50 and I don't want that to be my story, so I need to do something here. So I made a decision that I was going to lose some weight and it was going to change the numbers. And it was the weight was not about the numbers on the scale. The weight was about changing the blood numbers. In the process, so I since making that decision, I have lost a significant amount of weight and that so being right now in what feels like maybe the most fit of my life, which feels awesome and great and that's not the point. The point of the story is in the process, I discovered an athletic little boy inside of me who went in my growing up years and seasons, and I won't go into all the details just for the sake of time, but was not seen, was not attended to. I never threw the football with my dad. I never was on a sports team because of some family reasons. I never had a coach or, you know, speak into my life or any of those things. There was an athletic little boy in me that was left unattended for a very long time. And as I'm getting fit and working out and doing those kinds of things, I rediscovered him. And I needed to have some conversations between myself and that part of me and Jesus and that part of me in the sense of like, hey, I, I didn't remember that you were there. I didn't remember. I have always had some body shame. I have always had some like I'm a clumsy guy, I'm just not athletic, like that's been my reasoning for some of these things. When in fact, it's actually I can be that, I can do that. And I needed to, in those words, bring him home and re.. kind of reintegrate him back in and be like, No, I can play in this way. I can work out in this way. I can sweat in this way and in a in a way of pleasure and delight, goodness where I've not known that for the first 50 years of my life.Jeff Zaugg: [00:29:50] I mean, that's such a practical like like, oh, that's an area of discovery that is tangible and it's actually changing the way you walk, the way you talk, the way you think, when it comes to playing sports and athletics. Chris Bruno: [00:30:04] All the loss that I have held inside of me, because of I didn't get that from my dad. I didn't get that from the locker room. I didn't get that from a team. I didn't get all those things. So there's a lot of loss that I have held inside of me that has been heavy, that has been othering. When I am at a sports bar and I don't know what's happening and I'm not into all the games and all the things, and it's just because that athletic young boy, part of me never had the opportunities and so I felt so different and distanced. Whereas now I can, it's not like I'm going to go learn sports and do all those things, but I can be tender towards the loss and the grief that was there for me.Jeff Zaugg: [00:30:49] I've thought about your statement about becoming elderly. Like I'm just becoming old, becoming old and I'm not getting the quote right because I don't think I jotted the exact quote down, but that the decision of will I become someone with wisdom that gives it away and cares versus just an old person. Do you recall what I'm talking about?Chris Bruno: [00:31:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I don't know that I can quote myself even in that, but it's something to the degree of, like, every man ages. Some men will become elders, if they don't become elders they will just become elderly.Jeff Zaugg: [00:31:26] So that concept, too, let's speak to a little even younger than me than 32 year old that that can make goals right now, if I want to retire and I want to do this and this and this on my bucket list when I'm old. What would you encourage that 32 year old dad to be at a place that, oh, my goodness, you can step into being an elder that impacts generations way beyond your own kids and grandkids? What would your encouragement be?Chris Bruno: [00:31:51] I love that you brought 30 year olds into it because I think actually this generation of men is grappling with some things at earlier and earlier ages, both because of kind of the mobility that we have in career and just travel and all the things that we have now that there are some grappling that 30 year olds are starting to have. And so I would say, first of all, don't rush it. Right. Don't rush it. You don't need to be a sage tomorrow at age 35. You don't need to be a sage at the age of 45. Still like live the season of life that you're in and as you're living, the season of life that you're in, and I go into some of those seasons in the book to like what are some some stages that you might go through and all that, but live the season that you're in as you're doing so can you do so, back to that word that I used earlier, with a sense of curiosity and with a sense of kindness towards yourself so that you're not bringing all those parts of you home when you turn 50. You've done some of that work along the way. And that the passage, for the first passages, right, you know, a rite of passage, you do something when your son is 12 or 13 or 16 or something like that. He doesn't actually become a man in that moment.Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:02] That's true.Chris Bruno: [00:33:03] Okay. It doesn't actually happen. It takes a decade to do that.Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:06] Call it out. Then it starts becoming.Chris Bruno: [00:33:09] Call it out. Yes. You start calling it out at age 12 or 13. And then when he is 22 or 23, you might start to see more evidence of that actually having happened. Same thing for the second passage. It is a it is a passage, it's not a moment. It's you know, here in Colorado, we have the mountain passes and there's the climb up and then there's the descent down there, it's a journey, it's not a moment. So can you look at yourself and can you look at yourself in the sense of at age 32, at age 35, what is this next decade going to look like? And can you do some of the intentional work in your heart, you know, starting now, but not expecting that you're going to end now.Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:50] Yeah, that's that's incredible. And it also ties in with a 32 year old that maybe doesn't have a lot of sage examples that jumped into their heart or their mind. They're like, oh, it's this person or this person, I just want to become like them. Part of it might be that we just haven't exposed and learned people's stories enough to say, I want to be like them. From the outside, they're like, Oh, it's not the I don't want to be like that person, but there's a lot more depth to it. What would you encourage younger dads who want to experience more rubbing shoulders with sage? You know, guys who are in that season that are maybe not even not their dad, but someone else who could play a dad figure. Any just encouragment to how we how we get more time with and pursue relationships with sages?Chris Bruno: [00:34:34] Yeah. Yeah. So I would say two things to that, Jeff. So first of all, there is unfortunately like a of very few sages. There's a lot of old men and there's a lot of old men that give advice. So advice giving men are not sages, unless they are asked for advice, then that is a sage.Jeff Zaugg: [00:34:57] So that's the gauge is that people are not asking you for advice.Chris Bruno: [00:35:00] Don't give it.Jeff Zaugg: [00:35:00] You're probably not a sage.Chris Bruno: [00:35:02] Right. Because what the minute that you give advice that's unsolicited advice about you and what you know versus about the person, your pushing your opinions and all that. So that's what we just don't have that many sages. There are sages, I don't want to say we're bereft of sages in the world. They do exist. And so, first of all, I would say ask them and not ask, don't approach them from an advice posture. Hey, tell me what it was like for you? What should I do with my kids? How did you do discipline like all of that kind of stuff. You can read some really good books on that. What you actually need from a sage is not his information. You need his presence. You need to sit with him and just be with him. You need to fish with him. You need to sit in his garage. You need to, you know, sit around his fire pit.Jeff Zaugg: [00:35:54] Hot air balloon ride, perhaps.Chris Bruno: [00:35:55] Yeah, things like that. Um, and, and just sit with him, be in his presence, and watch how he is, not listen to what he does. That would be the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is because there's so few sages that probably one of the best things that you could do is to be around other men who are pursuing sage. Because there's something there about the camaraderie of men that when we are pursuing sage together, even if we don't know what it is and what it looks like, if we have intention to go there, we're going to find our way. We will find our way.Jeff Zaugg: [00:36:39] Wow. I met four guys who, your Brotherhood Primer, has become like a catalyst that they're stepping towards this. I met these guys all at church on Sunday. I was like, Man, there's something pretty special about this group of guys. And so I do want to make sure, and we're going to reference it in the show notes, like that tool to help grow towards Sage together, is it a book you've written to help guys in the journey?Chris Bruno: [00:37:04] Yeah. The fact is, we do not have the kinds of masculine relationships that I think we were designed to have, and we need to be intentional about pursuing it and creating it and going after it with one another. And it can feel awkward at times. It can feel confusing at times, it can feel disappointing at times. But but those guys and I know exactly who you're talking about, those guys are the kinds of guys that I want in my life. And I know that a lot of guys want in their life.Jeff Zaugg: [00:37:31] You have to work for it. You have to build it.Chris Bruno: [00:37:33] Yeah.Jeff Zaugg: [00:37:33] You have to step in and be vulnerable asking for help. Chris, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for this resource, Sage. We're going to link it out in all of our show notes, all how to get your book, how to get Brotherhood Primer, how to get the Man Maker Project, which we talked about in the previous two part episode a year ago. I was wondering could you, oh first, is there anything else that was just on your heart to share with our dadAWESOME community?Chris Bruno: [00:37:57] You know, I think another thought just finally, that last point was that there is a third. I, a third thing I wanted to say, and that was that I didn't have a few fleeting moments with some sages in my life. And I mean moments like, you know, a few times, a few months that I was able to be with them in my earliest years of life. And those were important moments, but they were not enough. And I actually found kind of sages in literature. I found sages in fiction. I found sages in, you know, Christian church history that I was like, what is it about these men that they can speak so and how can I how can you begin to incorporate that into my life? And so if you're if you're a man, you're like looking around, you can't there is nobody there is nobody that I know that I would even want to ask to be in either an example for me or in that kind of brotherhood. I think that all of the resources that are necessary for this journey are already provided for every man because it is the calling for every man. God has already provided those resources. It's a matter of opening our eyes and just asking, where are they, Lord?Jeff Zaugg: [00:39:06] Yeah. And be hungry. Be hungry for it. Chris Bruno: [00:39:08] And be hungry. Go after it. And read the book.Jeff Zaugg: [00:39:12] Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you, again, for the journey, the vulnerability of writing Sage. And yeah, I'm really grateful for this conversation. Would you take a moment and just pray over the guys listening?Chris Bruno: [00:39:23] Absolutely. God, thank you for the high calling of becoming a sage. And even if we feel like we are way far away, or if we've messed up and we're never going to get there, or there is irreparable damage that just surrounds us for whatever reason. God, thank you that you are a God of restoration and that you are all about bringing us back to the original design of who you made us to be. That you are about making all men new, not all new men. You're not going to start over, but you're about making all men new, again. So thank you for that. And I pray God for this resource that we would be able to have an opportunity to to engage on some level and that these men would have opportunities to engage with one another. So thank you Jesus. Amen.Jeff Zaugg: [00:40:13] Thank you so much for joining us today for Episode 249 with Chris Bruno. All the Conversation notes, the link to his book, Sage, his other two books that we talked about, are all going to be at dadAWESOME.org/249. You can find all those resources. Also, want to remind you guys, man, we partnered with Restoration Project to host the Front Range, Colorado. That bike ride, we have bought two more rides, one in Cocoa Beach, Florida, one in Scottsdale, Phoenix, Arizona, this year. And we are already looking forward to we've got a Spartan obstacle course race at the end of February in Florida, Jacksonville, Florida. And we are very soon opening registration for next summer. Some events, we've got a triathlon team launching in the Twin Cities and some other fun events in in Minnesota and beyond. So, guys, check out f4f.bike is where you're going to find all information. Also, just make sure you're following dadAWESOME and Fathers for the Fatherless on Instagram. We'll be making some announcements there. Guys, I am so thankful that you joined us today. I'm so thankful that you've decided I'm going to step in to becoming, to being dadAWESOME for my family. I'm praying for you guys this week. Have a great week with your kids.