293 | Investing into Brotherhood, Choosing Endurance Over Comfort, and the Rock Climbing Analogy (Roger Thompson: Part 1)
Episode Description
For Roger Thompson, discipling other men is life-giving. Between his father’s salvation story and his own childhood, Roger has experienced the empowering nature of brotherhood firsthand. In the first part of this conversation, he highlights the role of endurance and fortitude to encourage you in your fatherhood climb.
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Roger Thompson is a passionate men’s ministry leader and pastor at large based in the Twin Cities. He and his wife, Joanne, have been married for 52 years and have two daughters, seven grandchildren, and two great-grandchildren.
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· God is reparenting us.
· Your investment into brotherhood will leave a multigenerational impact.
· Endurance is when you continue forward without seeing any finish line.
· In the rock climbing analogy of life, there are eight handholds you must master.
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Do the Next Right Thing by Roger Thompson
40 Days of Fortitude by Roger Thompson (Youtube Playlist)
40 Days of Integrity by Roger Thompson (YouTube Playlist)
40 Days of Wisdom by Roger Thompson (YouTube Playlist)
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Roger Thompson: [00:00:39] My dad's life changed when these other men reparented him, that's my word for discipleship. God, the Father is reparenting us no matter how perfect or imperfect or abusive or absent or present our human dads were, we still need to be reparented. There are so many things we didn't learn or our dads didn't teach us. So God is reparenting us and I saw that in my dad. I don't even know who those men are, but someday in heaven I'm going to meet them and thank them.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:11] Welcome back to DadAwesome. Today, Episode 293, I have Roger Thompson joining me. So I've known of Roger for about 15 years, maybe 16 years. And through some good friends of ours, Eric and Betsy, and I have kind of waited for the right opportunity, I've known that he for like three and a half decades lead pastor of a church in the south metro of, of the Twin Cities in Minnesota. Lead pastor who has a massive heart for men's ministry. Doing work, engaging men in their church and beyond. And that's just, it's not super common that the lead pastor has equal or more passion for men and for the heart of men. But he is not only a grandpa, but a great grandfather and he'll introduce his family in a moment, here. But, Roger Thompson, so grateful to have a two part conversation. So, this week, episode 293. And then next week, the follow up, the second half of the conversation, episode 294. So, we got part one, part two coming at you guys. Take some notes, buckle up. This is kind of drinking from a firehose of wisdom, from like I mentioned, three, four decades of men's ministry, just a deep heart for men. So, Roger Thompson, part one is coming at you right now. Found a photo of your family on Facebook. Maybe? Maybe it's on Facebook?
Roger Thompson: [00:02:38] Yeah, just recently.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:39] Yeah, I think it was a recent one. But, what is the, so how long you been married? we'll start there.
Roger Thompson: [00:02:44] Well, I just, yesterday, celebrated 52 years.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:47] 52 is yesterday? Congrats.
Roger Thompson: [00:02:49] Yeah. Right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:50] Only 52 years?
Roger Thompson: [00:02:51] Yeah. Well, we were nine when we got married.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:54] I don't know, I've interviewed some, some guests, some sage leaders who have been married, maybe over 45. But, you maybe have the record for the most years.
Roger Thompson: [00:03:02] My wife has the record.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:03] Yeah, exactly. She stayed. She's got the record. What's her first name?
Roger Thompson: [00:03:06] Joanne.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:08] Joanne. 52 years. And then how many kids and how many grandkids?
Roger Thompson: [00:03:10] We have two daughters. They're both married and we have seven grandchildren and two great grandchildren.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:18] You have, okay.
Roger Thompson: [00:03:20] You're talking to an old guy here.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:20] Four generations cut right here.
Roger Thompson: [00:03:21] Exactly.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:22] Amazing. And are yours or your wife's parents in heaven or living still?
Roger Thompson: [00:03:26] They're all in heaven.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:27] K. So you've got four generations, right now, here?
Roger Thompson: [00:03:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:31] Well, speaking of graduated, I know you've been working on jumping into a next phase of serving in the local church and serving men. And, and congrats, because it sounds like you've, you've stepped out of full time into at least, you've failed at retirement twice, I think you said, now you're, now you're stepping into even more men's focus, right?
Roger Thompson: [00:03:47] Right. Yes I will, I'm available obviously for anything that would fit within my, my new rhythm.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:54] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:03:54] And I'm not calling it retirement. I'm calling it recalibration.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:03:57] That's good.
Roger Thompson: [00:03:58] Because I don't want to retire, you know, like go off and play. But I do want more free time. You know, the, the dirty little secret of pastoring is that you get no weekends. And so my family's been on, what I would call, a civilian schedule.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:16] Sure.
Roger Thompson: [00:04:16] They ramp up until Friday and then they ramp down. Well, I'm ramping up on Friday and ramping down on Monday. And so anyway, all that to say, yes, I'm, I'm now moving into a phase where I'm purposely half time.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:30] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:04:31] And choosing, primarily, obviously my discipleship focus is men and I'll be teaching men, disciplining men, coaching men and writing to men primarily.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:41] And as a dad of daughters, you've had this heart for men for so long. Where did that stir up and start? I mean, you've done bike tours with men. You've, you were youth pastors serving, you know, young men. Where did some of the genesis moments of you knowing, hey, I'm I'm here on earth to serve and lead and disciple men?
Roger Thompson: [00:05:00] Well, you know, let me, let me tell you a story. I've told this story many, many times. I think it really comes from my dad. My dad was born into a home in Seaside, Oregon, and became a Christ follower when he was about 13, in a little Baptist church there. But he was never really discipled and his dad was abusive, angry, alcoholic, hard worker, immigrant, Norwegian guy, worked in the sawmills. He literally drove horses in the forest, dragging logs to the sawmills. And so he's a provider for his home. But he wasn't a dad, he wasn't present. But my dad's mom was a very sort of I would, she would probably call it Pentecostal or charismatic, today. But she just prayed and prayed and prayed, most of the time in Norwegian, for her boys. And so anyway, my dad became a Christ follower at a young age, but he wasn't discipled. So he joined the Army when he was 20, 21. It was in 1941, just before he was going to get drafted, anyway. He was very mechanical and so he became a tank maintenance battalion, a maintenance mechanic. Joined a tank maintenance battalion in Fort Sill, Oklahoma, which is where they practice all that well, that battalion was infiltrated by Christ followers.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:27] Yes.
Roger Thompson: [00:06:29] There are bunch of guys there, they're actually Plymouth Brethren. And Plymouth Brethren don't have paid clergy, which is a bad idea, by the way.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:38] Yes, pay your pastors.
Roger Thompson: [00:06:39] But they believed in training their men in the scripture. Well, these guys got a hold of my dad, they just lit him up. The Lord lit him up. They taught him how to share his testimony. They solidified his faith. They taught him how to read the Bible, how to pray, how to sing in a quartet. And they got together. And one of the men was an officer. He was a Lutheran pastor or a Lutheran officer from Minnesota. And they got together and this officer had his wife there and her name was Margaret. And one night, one night my dad said to Margaret, who is this very vivacious gal, he said, It's too bad you don't have a sister. And she said, Oh, but I do. She's back in Brooklyn, New York. So my dad began to write to my mom, my future mom, as a nurse in Brooklyn, New York. So they're bicoastal. Ones from Seaside, Oregon, ones from Brooklyn, New York.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:30] And never met.
Roger Thompson: [00:07:30] They never met. And they they wrote, they became daily correspondence. So I say that my parents met on the Internet, you know, the slow Internet. And, and they married after the war. But, but all this to say, my dad's life changed when these other men reparented him. That's my word for discipleship.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:56] Wow.
Roger Thompson: [00:07:56] God, the Father is reparenting us. No matter how perfect or imperfect or abusive or absent or present our our our human dads were, we still need to be reparented. There's so many things we didn't learn or our dads didn't teach us. So God is reparenting us. And I saw that in my dad. He, I don't even know who those men are, but someday in heaven, I'm going to meet them and thank them. They taught him how to do all these things to, to feed himself spiritually. They, they let him up. He later became a pastor. I grew up in a, in a, in his home as a pastor. And and they also but they also showed him how to treat a woman. They showed him how to be a gentle, strong man. And so, Jeff, I'm an inheritor of that. I'm a complete recipient of a man who with whom God broke the chain. You know, so my dad's a first generation chain breaker. Like a New Testament disciple and look at what that has done. I mean, don't look at me, but just look at what I got as a gift. I got a dad who, who loved me, who cared for me. And I got, also, his group of other men. For some reason, he was, he was a, my dad was a hero maker. He was always saying, I grew up in Golden, Colorado. It was a Colorado School of mine’s, was there, and we had a couple of professors in our church. And my dad would say, you know, that guy, he is brilliant. And he'd say, You know, Ken, he's the best plumber in the state, you know.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:09:37] He'd call it out.
Roger Thompson: [00:09:38] You know, he said, look at the craftsmanship of how that guy built that wall, you know. So my dad was always pointing to the capacities of men and admiring those men. And he had any related to those men. So I think it kind of came in my DNA that I've just been drawn to and fascinated by the different giftings and capabilities of men. And so that has that's kind of been in my, my blood. And obviously, I'm not going to be discipling women.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:08] Right. Right.
Roger Thompson: [00:10:08] But it's not like this was a second choice for me, it was natural. And then as I grew in ministry, I spent a couple of summers with a ministry called Sea and Summit out of Santa Barbara, California. And we took delinquent boys on 21 day expeditions to the high Sierras and mountain climbing and stuff like that. And, and obviously, so I was put in charge of a watch, we called it a watch of four other guys, and we spent three whole weeks together. And, and I really learned a lot of skills there. I learned a lot of it kind of tweaked my adventure side, you know. I'm not a wild adventurer, but I've always had a, a hunger to see what's over the horizon. I still do. I want to, when I ride, I don't want a GPS. I want to find out what's over the hill, you know. Now I'm over the hill.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:02] No, you're not.
Roger Thompson: [00:11:05] So, you know, I don't even remember what your question was, but I focus on men, not because it's my duty, it's just surely been a joy. And when I come home from teaching men, my wife always remarks, She says, You just look alive. It's just my sweet spot. And, and I know that's not true for every pastor, it's not true for every Bible teacher, but it is for me. And part of that's the, it's the brotherhood. You know, I feel like I've gained, I didn't have, I had two sisters and now I have two daughters. So I, I grew up in sororities.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:45] That's right. I know a lot about that.
Roger Thompson: [00:11:46] Yeah. That's right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:46] My four daughters.
Roger Thompson: [00:11:47] Yeah, so, so I felt like I've gained brothers in this process. And God has blessed me. I, you know, frequently I, I get involved with families like, especially at a funeral situation and sometimes I'll be involved with a family and there's not one trustworthy, articulate man in the family. Who could be the executor of the will or who will care for the family in this time, and not just organize them, take care of things, you know. Clean out the house or do whatever. And I just think about, man, I could, give me 3 minutes, I could name 50 guys who would do that.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:26] Who could carry that.
Roger Thompson: [00:12:27] For me. And I'm not their family. You know, some would be better at it than others.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:31] Sure.
Roger Thompson: [00:12:32] I just feel so wealthy, you know, in this whole process.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:36] Roger, I want to point out a few things that you said. I mean, the first is that by pouring out, you feel wealthy, like that you feel by investing in young men, in men in various, because you get multigenerational. Like you're just like focused on whether it's the teenager, the young dad, the grandpa. But the other thing you said, about your dad, is that he was a hero maker with his words.
Roger Thompson: [00:12:57] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:12:58] Not just his thoughts. We can think well about people, but when we put, you articulate for others, you were listening, you were watching. Did he use his words for you in that way of calling things out in you as well? Or did you see that more that he called it out in others?
Roger Thompson: [00:13:11] You know, he, I don't know, I don't recall a lot of specific words for that. But there was a lot of, what I would call a healthy expectancy.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:21] Okay.
Roger Thompson: [00:13:23] Like I got a paper route when I was 11 and my dad said, well, you know, you can do this, but this is your route.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:31] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:13:31] I can't do this for you. Are you ready for this responsibility? And I felt like I was being addressed as a man.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:40] Yeah. At 11.
Roger Thompson: [00:13:41] In fact. You know, I look back on it now, we basically lived at the poverty level. I mean, you know, we were, we never starved. But I remember my mom coming to me and saying, you know, when I'm 11, she said, Do you, do you think you could buy a pair of boots for yourself this year? Could you buy your winter coat?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:03] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:14:04] And I didn't feel imposed, I, to me, maybe I'm weird, but to me...
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:09] You're empowered.
Roger Thompson: [00:14:09] That empowered me. I felt like, Yeah, I'm proud to do that, you know. I'm making a dollar a day.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:16] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:14:16] 100 papers.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:18] Yeah. That's good.
Roger Thompson: [00:14:19] $30 a month. And saving and tithing and all that, anyway, that's getting off the track. But, but, yeah, my dad used his words for me, mostly, and his affirmation was mostly, we can do this together. And I was impatient. I was in a hurry. And he was always very patient. We did a lot of car work and a lot of stuff and I was always getting mad and throwing wrenches. And he's saying, Roger, somebody else put this together, we can put it together, you know. And then later, as I got older and went to college and was doing more moving away, he wrote me letters, you know, to affirm how proud he was of me, how much he loved me. And there was never any doubt of that. He was never really a very physical guy in terms of hugging.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:05] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:15:06] But I share the story that when I was in high school, I bought a 1960 Studebaker Lark.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:14] Okay.
Roger Thompson: [00:15:14] Some of your guys...
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:14] I don't know what that is.
Roger Thompson: [00:15:16] You don't even know what that is. Well, basically, it's the junkiest car you could buy, the cheapest. And I blew the transmission out of it right away. So my dad said, Well, let's put a stick shift in there. So we went to the junkyard and got an old transmission. Transmission with an overdrive, which weighs, you know, a lot more than the normal. And these are all cast iron beasts, you know. So we're underneath this thing and we're trying to get the pilot bearing hooked up and drive shaft hooked up. And, and we're laying there trying to get hooked up and get one bolt started so we can relax.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:45] Yeah, so you don't have to hold it.
Roger Thompson: [00:15:46] And I just remember the physical proximity of shoulder to shoulder with my dad under this greasy car.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:53] Like your life depends on it. You have to hold it.
Roger Thompson: [00:15:55] Yeah. And, and just the fact that, you know, we weren't hugging each other, but this was, there's this manliness of teamwork, you know. Football players feel that, wrestlers feel that, athletes feel that, you know. There's, it's not, it's not a, it's not at all a sexual thing. It's a, it's a manly thing. And that's sitting on the step shoulder to shoulder with a cup of coffee afterwards.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:16] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:16:16] That's how, I think, manly affection was conveyed to me. I'm with you. I'm, we're in this together. I need you for this. And I certainly needed him, but he made it clear that he needed me. So, you know my dad, I can't remember one time when my dad said, Hey, I'm going to take a Saturday off, let's do whatever you want to do.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:40] Didn't do that.
Roger Thompson: [00:16:41] He never said that. He said, I'm taking a Saturday off. We're going to go over and help Bud take the transmission out of his car. Let's go.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:48] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:16:49] He included me in his world.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:50] So good.
Roger Thompson: [00:16:51] And I don't know if every kid would respond to that the way I did. To me, that was like, I can't wait, you know. I, I'm going to get up early, you know, because I get to be with my dad.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:03] So, so practical and so often, like, I don't think of that as being a gift to my little girls, but it can be if, if they're pulled in. The, the other thing you mentioned is your dad's group of friends that led to that trajectory changing, kingdom focus, working on tanks, right?
Roger Thompson: [00:17:21] Yeah, right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:22] Like just so we could remember as men that when we come around someone or we welcome someone into our group of friends or whether it's that that softball league or it's that's a, you know, group that's already doing something and we welcome somebody else in and we lead them to Jesus like you now have three generations, you know, you're looking at four generations, including yourself. And you're saying back like, I can't wait to meet those men in heaven.
Roger Thompson: [00:17:45] Exactly.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:45] I just want to make sure none of us missed that. Like the, the deposits we make in brotherhood could have such further lasting, I mean, you've now given three, four decades to men. Like the amount of men who have been touched from you, and it was directly a trickle down of those men around those tanks, for context.
Roger Thompson: [00:18:05] Yeah. There was never, they had, yeah, they had no idea. And my dad really didn't have any intentions about what I would do.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:12] Yep.
Roger Thompson: [00:18:13] But Lord willing, he'll see it one day.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:15] He will. He will. I did want to talk about the difference between endurance and perseverance and maybe as a little set up for the guys who don't know who Ernest Shackleton is. I've read the I think it's called The Endurance, his book.
Roger Thompson: [00:18:29] Yes, Endurance. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:30] And just the little set up, so that story. But then the difference, you know, dad life the, the let's see so that had to make sure I have this right, there's perseverance and endurance. Perseverance means you actually have a specific thing that you can persevere to, a dead line, an end, end, right. And endurance is the ongoing, you don't know how long.
Roger Thompson: [00:18:50] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:50] Am I right on that?
Roger Thompson: [00:18:51] Well, that would be my definition.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:18:52] Yeah. Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:18:53] You know, I've I've written a book called Do the Next Right Thing, and it talks about adding to your faith, goodness and to goodness virtue and to goodness, faithfulness and through faithfulness, endurance, etc.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:05] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:19:06] And I, I really believe that there is a difference between endurance and perseverance that we can't prove it semantically, but we can prove it in our lives.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:20] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:19:20] So, like, endurance is, like, running the mile. So whenever I ran the mile, I knew the hardest lap of the mile is the third lap. It's when the adrenaline is gone and you're, you're starving for oxygen, but you got to keep going. But you know to get through the third lap, there's only one more so you can kick it in.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:37] Yep.
Roger Thompson: [00:19:38] It's not a pleasant feeling, but you, you can get there and then you hit the finish line. But perseverance is a different kind of sustaining energy. It's when you're running and you find you, you know what, I think I took a wrong turn and I'm not sure where I am. I got to keep running till I get back. In fact, this happened to me one time in Copenhagen. I won't explain the whole story, but I was going to go for a six mile run, turned into be about a 12 or 13 mile run because I turned the wrong direction and I got all turned around. I didn't have a phone number. I was...
Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:13] Backwards.
Roger Thompson: [00:20:14] Lost in the city. I had to keep running until I found my way back. But perseverance is like having a special needs child. You, you have to keep running. You have to keep pouring in, and you don't know if it will ever end. You don't. You don't know where the finish line is or you may be caring for a wife who has a health issue and you don't like the ending that you see coming. But you still need to love and serve, his woman.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:52] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:20:52] You have a business that your technology is old. It's phasing out. You know that, you know sooner or later you're going to have to close up this shop or there's not enough business coming your way, but you can't just walk away. You have to show up every day and all the discouragements and but God calls us to that kind of perseverance. And I just, I see so many men around me who have modeled that for me, you know. Not enough, but many have modeled that for me where I don't know how they do it except by the grace of God. And we just need to remember that perseverance is one of the virtues. It's one of the graces of God. And sooner or later, we're all going to face it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:21:35] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:21:35] I'm going to face it. Where my physical capabilities are taken away, where I can't do the adventures I want to do. And the question will be, okay, Lord, with just Your presence, just Your grace in my life, just Your, Your voice, I want to, I want to persevere.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:21:55] Yeah. And preparing for being ready to carry strength into perseverance, like challenging ourselves when we don't have to. So this would tie in with doing this 100 mile bike ride that we did together last year. And, and, you know, other challenges. I mean, even those 21 day adventures that you took these, these young, young adult men on or they were teenagers, I think, right? Those adventures.
Roger Thompson: [00:22:20] Right. Yeah. Most of them were.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:22] Yeah. It's amazing. How would you like and maybe, maybe this quote will actually be helpful from your book and we'll link your book, Do The Next Right Thing, in the show notes. But you wrote this, warning the road to spiritual ineffectiveness and unproductive-ness goes right through the Doritos aisle. That was your quote, right?
Roger Thompson: [00:22:41] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:41] Am I right?
Roger Thompson: [00:22:42] Yeah. Right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:42] So, so the, the idea of comfort is the draw that gravitational pull is going to be towards comfort, doing easy things.
Roger Thompson: [00:22:49] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:50] We chose to ride 100 miles to help the fatherless for the Fathers for the Fatherless. How would you encourage us to prepare for being men who can, can have perseverance?
Roger Thompson: [00:23:01] Well, I think we have to be careful that, that we don't become ascetic. You know, that word to be an ascetic person is a person who thinks if I punish myself, if I wear a hair shirt, if I sleep without a blanket, you know, like the old monks, if I somehow become this this body denying, pleasure denying person, that somehow I'll be closer to God.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:27] Right.
Roger Thompson: [00:23:27] So we have to be careful about that. Nevertheless, we are in such a huge Doritos aisle of, of pleasures and snacks, spiritual snacks, that I do think we need to search for things where we say, you know what, I'm going to withhold my reward for a while.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:48] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:23:48] I'm going to put myself in situations that make me uncomfortable. They might be physical, but it might be, it might be spiritual. You know, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll teach third grade boys, you know. Put myself in a place where I need to step up, be faithful, make a commitment and endure in that. I think the road to true perseverance is through endurance. Saying, you know, I can, maybe it's even just I'm going to, I'm going to fix this part of my house, even though I don't know how to do it. And I'm going to endure through the process, I'm going to face the failure, I'm going to go to Home Depot 12 times. But, but I'm going to get out of the comfort boat and, and into the raft where it's a little bit more stark. I'm exposed a little bit more. And again, we can, that can become crazy. We're not talking about being deniers of all pleasure, but the scripture says in James, that, that all of these trials, which we don't normally have to even go looking for those, they're built to build endurance in us, but endurance must complete its work. Which is to bring us to joy. [00:25:02][73.6]
Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:02] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:25:03] The joy of the Lord.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:04] Wow. So that's the direction we're headed.
Roger Thompson: [00:25:06] So endurance is not the goal. Perseverance is not the goal, but it's a means. And, you know, you've, you've experienced it in your own life or you've experienced with people who go through deep trials that they didn't choose. And they say, you know what, I never would have chosen that, but I would I would never, I don't want to miss the opportunity. I was never closer to the Lord. I actually miss the times of struggle.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:33] Because it's marked me.
Roger Thompson: [00:25:35] It's marked me. And I've gotten a lot of people say I've gotten lazy, you know, since then, you know.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:41] Wow. I want to take us forward in another direction. Let's pause just a second longer on this topic with the word fortitude, fortitude.
Roger Thompson: [00:25:48] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:49] I don't hear many people talk about that, that term. And you spent 40 days talking about that with, with men that you lead. And you also spent 40 days on wisdom and integrity, and there's at least two or three others, and they'll all be linked in the show notes. These, this YouTube channel full of bite size, two minute, right, two minute, short.
Roger Thompson: [00:26:07] Well, 3 to 4.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:09] Sometimes you got passionate, you got a little passionate.
Roger Thompson: [00:26:11] Right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:11] So, so fortitude. What, what is it and why is it valuable and important for us men?
Roger Thompson: [00:26:16] Well, fortitude, that word came out of a study we were doing in the life of Joshua.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:21] Joshua. Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:26:22] You know, And so fortitude is the courage to step up, even when you're afraid. And it's really another word for courage. But it's kind of courage and action. And you recall the story of Joshua was, is it three times in the first chapter? God says, you know, don't be afraid, take courage, step up, be a man of fortitude. So I need it every day. There's something that comes along every day that's threatening or I don't want to do it and fortitude is that manly, active courage that says,Hey, boys, We're going in.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:58] Yeah.
Roger Thompson: [00:26:58] You know, we're going in.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:00] Yeah. So good. You mentioned rock climbing earlier, and you referred to Peter as a rock climbing coach, I think. At some point I heard you refer to that. And this is, again, your book, Do The Next Right Thing. 1 Peter 1:3-9, I'll hit them fast.
Roger Thompson: [00:27:16] 2 Peter.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:17] Oh, I had it wrong. 2 Peter, thank you for the catch. That was a test to make sure, Roger.
Roger Thompson: [00:27:22] Yeah, I think I remember.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:23] So it says, so these are the eight. Faith, goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, Godliness, brotherly kindness, love. Did I get the eight right?
Roger Thompson: [00:27:32] Yep.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:34] My scribbling handwriting. Without going into one of them at depth, just the fly over. Why did you choose these handholds? And why is this so important for, for men?
Roger Thompson: [00:27:46] Well, I chose them because that's what Peter said. Peter, Peter's coming at, Peter's near the end of his life, and Jesus told him how he's going to die. He's going to die not by his own choice, but somebody is going to lead him where he doesn't want to go. And yet Peter is saying to the church, the living church that's scattered all over the, the, the eastern culture there, he's saying these are the things that you need to add to your faith, not like a ladder that you climb toward elitism. But these are like the handholds that a climber would use. Sometimes you need an overhand grip, sometimes you need a jam, sometimes you need underhand grip. Sometimes it's a friction grip. You never know when you're going to need this. So, master, these eight handholds, because you're going to need them and sometimes you're going to use one constantly, you know. Like we just talked about perseverance. Well, you're still hanging on. So, Peter, I use the analogy of climbing because I didn't want it to become a stairway to spirituality. Like, Hey, Jeff, I'm on, I'm on seven. Where are you? You know, No, that's not it. At any given point, you know, my faith is going to require self-control or it's going to require Godliness or one of these other handholds. So I just love the, the compressed clarity of Peter saying at the end of his life, basically, obviously by the Holy Spirit's inspiration, but his own journey, this is what I've learned. I want to pass this on to you. This is what you need. And, and he says, I'm going to keep reminding you of these things in that same chapter.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:29:30] Thank you so much for joining us for this first half of my conversation with Roger Thompson. All the conversation notes are going to be found on our new DadAwesome website. This has been launched over the last two weeks here, dadawesome.org/293, for today's show notes. Also want to remind you guys, nearly 300 episodes are all now categorized with like I think there's 18 categories you can select multiple filters. You can search back through the whole catalog of DadAwesome podcast. Our resource section, the resource library at the new DadAwesome website that's loaded with, I think, there's over 70 books, ministries, experiences, podcasts, articles, other resources, apps for your phone, and you can search those based on categories, as well. So just trying to bring to you some of our discoveries in almost six years of DadAwesome. So hop over, dadawesome.org, for that. Guys, thanks for listening this week. Make sure to tune back next week as we dive into the second half of this conversation with Roger Thompson. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being DadAwesome. Have a great week.
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8:47 - "I'm an inheritor of that. I'm a complete recipient of a man with whom God broke the chain. So my dad's a first generation chain breaker. A New Testament disciple and look at what that has done. Don't look at me, but just look at what I got as a gift. I got a dad who loved me, who cared for me."
16:16 - "That's how manly affection was conveyed to me. I'm with you. We're in this together. I need you for this. And I certainly needed him, but [my dad] made it clear that he needed me."
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