348 | Expectation Gaps, Celebration in Suffering, and the Gift of Your Story (Jim Barnard)
Episode Description
Jim Barnard is known as The Suffering Guy. In this heartfelt episode, Jim shares the pivotal moments of his life story, including countless crises and miracles he’s experienced along the way. His story offers hope for others walking through challenging times, and he’ll encourage you to look to the source of all comfort as you try to make sense of reality.
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Jim Barnard is a pastor and the founder of tiller coaching. He offers coaching without barriers to those who are suffering the reality of the expectation gap. Jim has encountered suffering firsthand as he has navigated his wife’s rare chronic illness, but he continues to pursue joy and celebration as his story unfolds.
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· The gap between reality and what we hope for is full of disappointment, dissatisfaction, and distress.
· You’re never alone in your suffering; the God of Comfort is always with you.
· Your story is your greatest gift because it helps others know that their hard stories can become ones of flourishing, too.
· God isn’t going to send you in a new direction empty-handed.
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Jim Barnard: [00:00:39] This suffering has forced me to acknowledge that I can't save myself. I can't save her. I am in need of help. I really needed Jesus in the here and now to help me get through every single day. Praise the Lord I've gotten to suffer with Him. I'm not alone in this. I can actually suffer with Him and He knows a thing or two about suffering. So it's the God of all comfort can comfort me, and then I can turn around and comfort others. Like that makes a huge difference.
Kiva Zaugg: [00:01:09] Hey dude! Welcome to DadAwesome.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:14] Hold on, hold on. It's episode 348 of DadAwesome.
Ruthie Zaugg: [00:01:18] DadAwesome!!!
Kiva Zaugg: [00:01:19] It's episode 348 of DadAwesome with Jim Barnard.
Ruthie Zaugg: [00:01:24] DadAwesome!!
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:25] Jim Barnard is joining us this week. My oldest two daughters have taken over.
Ruthie Zaugg: [00:01:29] DadAwesome!!
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:31] And they just wanted to say hello.
Kiva Zaugg: [00:01:33] Enjoy the show!
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:36] Okay. And my girls they're, they're amazing. And it's been a little while since they've been on the podcast. So there we go. Little take over. Jim Barnard, grateful to have him joining DadAwesome this week. He has written a couple of books. We were introduced through actually one of our Fathers for the Fatherless alumni out in Colorado made the introduction. Chris Wolf, shout out Chris Wolf, and just grateful. And Jim leads Tiller Coaching and we're going to talk about that in the conversation. I mentioned a couple of books. His first book, The Suffering Guy, really gets at these deeper themes of, man, what if life turns out differently than we thought? What if the journey is not a quick answer, but instead it's a journey of trusting God and actually suffering with God is with us in our suffering. And Jesus has suffered for us and He's suffering with us as we walk through, in Jim's case, the unimaginable. I'm so grateful you guys for listening. There's so many parallels this conversation to every chapter of the dad life. So this is episode 348, my conversation with Jim Barnard.
Kiva Zaugg: [00:02:41] This week's podcast is with Jim Barnard.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:02:54] I thought we'd start with this Jim, celebration, topic of celebration. And anyone who maybe even read the title to this podcast or knows any of your story, which we're going to get into, it would be like, Why would you start with that? Of all topics, celebration but the dad life, the dad life in so many ways can feel like we're this or that or this, there's so many reasons to not celebrate. And I, I think, I think you're a perfect person to ask this question to. Why is celebration key for dads?
Jim Barnard: [00:03:23] Wow. Okay. That's a super good question. I, as we'll get into my story, there's just been a lot of suffering, a lot of what I call expectation gaps. You know, we all have hopes and expectations for career, for marriage, for parenting, for life. And often reality comes in underneath that. And that gap between reality and what we hope for is full of disappointment and dissatisfaction and distress. And I hate that. Like I've experienced copious amounts of, you know, expectation gaps. And every single time I'm stuck in the gap, there's an invitation to take myself too seriously, you know, like, woe is me, this is awful. I hate it. Like I'm I want to cope, you know, whatever. And I just I love Richard Foster's book, The Celebration of Discipline. Like that has been kind of a cornerstone book in my life. Where he says at the end that celebration is the thing that can save us from taking ourselves too seriously.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:04:33] Yes.
Jim Barnard: [00:04:34] And I think the Christian life is about not taking ourselves too seriously. Being humble, being meek, you know, being others focused, serving others. And in all of my gaps, man, I'm just inward focused. You know, like, this sucks. I hate this. But if I can learn to celebrate, even in the midst of the biggest gap, man, it takes the sting away, right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:00] Yes.
Jim Barnard: [00:05:01] Like, I can, I think I can begin to have some perspective that, you know, it seems just absurd. But I, I've just found, like, ways to celebrate, you know, simple as just, like, getting that that blizzard, you know, with with my son, you know, whatever. So, like, going on that big trip to see, you know, the Packers at Lambeau or like just doing doing something to like, you know, celebrate the season. I just it really makes, it's made a huge difference in my life.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:35] I was thinking about asking you to get practical, then you gave me a few. The big trip, in the small the blizzard that they hand you upside down. I'm like, Yeah, sounds delicious right now.
Jim Barnard: [00:05:43] Yeah. Let's go.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:43] Yeah. We, I can walk into a room with the thing of Tic Tacs and be like, just make up a reason of like, let's celebrate for a moment. And all my daughters and my wife, just like, You can, like, there's so many small, practical ways. But how often? I'm trying to think of like, the ingredients that would help or like, what would help a dad remember to celebrate and realize how easy it is to celebrate? So a few that come to my mind are like community, we have friends. We have like, like you could think about ahead of time. There's something to celebrate about that friend and help them nudge them towards celebration, right.
Jim Barnard: [00:06:18] Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:19] And then we're eating, food. We mentioned food is a couple examples. Tic Tacs and blizzards. Trips. What else comes to mind for just practical ways to stir up more, more celebration?
Jim Barnard: [00:06:28] Man, like with my son, I will, it's easy to be, like, negative or critical. Like you're doing it wrong. Like, do it like this. I was standing over my son's shoulder the other day as he was doing his math homework and he's about to turn 14. And so the math is getting a little bit harder than I know how to deal with. And as he was doing it, I was starting to figure it out. And he was, he was kind of messing it up and I wanted to be critical. I wanted to, like, jump in and be like, no, you're doing it wrong. Stop it, you know. But I just, I let him do it. And he's like, the wrong answer because it's all online and it'll give you that instant gratification of an answer. And I was like, man, I'm dude, you get to do it again. Like, are you kidding me? Like, this so much fun.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:17] So you celebrate the opportunity. Yes.
Jim Barnard: [00:07:20] Yeah. You know, just trying to have a different tact, you know, I think it's good for me, but undoubtedly good for him, right. Like he already feels the pressure of getting it right. And, you know, like that next day, we got out in the backyard and threw the football around and just had some fun. And the two weren't correlated. But I just, being present in the moment and like finding the thing to smile about. There's so many things to frown about, man. Like, but that's, it's just not healthy. It's not, it's not good. You know, we've got to find the moments.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:07:57] And both are contagious celebration and frowning.
Jim Barnard: [00:08:01] Oh my gosh, yes. Yeah. Like, it begets each other, right.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:04] Yeah. So you brought up expectation gaps. And we're going to talk about that theme probably in and out of all of your story, because it's so true in all of our stories have these gaps. We recently, I can't actually recall who I was chatting with on this podcast about when your child is born, you become a dad, the first time. And actually in so many ways it is a marker moment of celebration. Your community celebrates you. You post something and it'll be your most liked photo on Facebook if you happen to post it, right. It's like there's celebration. But really becoming a dad has all kinds of layers of loss, of grief. It's just like you and we went through, I won't rehash it now, but there's so many layers of you lose freedom, you lose time, you lose money, you lose connection with your wife. You lose this flexibility, you lose sleep, you lose. And it's so funny that actually we celebrate something and then we almost like forget to keep celebrating because of, because of all this loss, all this expectation gaps, right?
Jim Barnard: [00:09:03] Yes, absolutely.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:09:05] What would you add into that, that concept of like, man celebration we got to keep it going. And that's that is the reality of becoming a dad.
Jim Barnard: [00:09:14] Yeah. What would I add into that list? I mean, it's a pretty exhaustive list. Like that, you pretty well named all that, I think, dreams, right. Like, there are things that I have wanted to accomplish in my life and I feel like some of those I've had a punt on, right. Like someday Anderson will go to college and maybe that's the time I can do this or do that. Yeah, I think that's, that's something we sacrifice or lose pretty easily.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:09:43] Yeah. I think the the dad dashboard of like I want to do more of this and less of this and celebration is for sure on my list of I want to celebrate more. If, it also sparks shiny eyes and that's what I want for my girls, for my wife. I want when I enter a room, I want when when I'm engaging even a difficult problem or a moment of pain too. Can I help their eyes shine more? Well, what's a tool for that? For all of us dads, celebration. I mean, it really is. It's truly a tool. And there's, there's a different rhythms of the day. If you're leaving for school, returning from school, dinner moments. We do high, low, buffalo and the buffalo stories are the silly, crazy, unexpected things from their day. Like these are celebrations waiting to happen if you pounce on them and celebrate them when they're shared, right. There's even that. It's like, how do we respond as dads? Do we celebrate or do we just go to the next thing? Okay, what's your next thing on your high, low, buffalo?
Jim Barnard: [00:10:38] We do that at our house. We don't do the buffalo. I don't, I never knew about that. I'm going to incorporate that. But I find that, Anderson, like probably your girls do this, it's like, yeah, this happened or that happened and it's like, whatever. And it's like a quick little nugget. That means, it feels very insignificant. But, man, I try to jump on that stuff, whether it's the good or the bad. Like, Well, now will you tell me more. Like, I want to know more that that investment feels like celebration of like, yeah, even, even if it's like the hard thing. Like, Hold on, wait, but you responded this other way. Like, that's really awesome that you, you know, talk to that bully that, you know, it was, you know, giving you a hard time, but you handled it so well. Like that, that was a bad moment but you you crushed it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:25] Yes. Yeah. I love that. And pouncing on in the best kind of affirming way us dad's responses and monotonous answers or just kind of like like there's not much emotion there. Well, let's, let's dive in a little deeper. That's such a great practical thing. I thought just going back into your story, it's the gift of story. It's wild to me how rarely I'll ask somebody, hey, tell me more about your story and then just give them the time to kind of like, oh my goodness, the amount I can learn through hearing someone else's story, what they've walked through, what they've experienced. I've had the. I've had the gift of I know some of your story because of your book that you've like, it is a gift, truly. It'll be linked out in the show notes and and even this that your second book, MADE ALIVE, like this to me of like wrapping into the core of what makes you live fully alive and makes our faith actually not to be a settled faith, but like, let's oh my goodness, look what God has created. So I love these two books, grateful for, and they'll be linked out in the show notes. But I wanted to just like, let's go back, let's go back to 2006, I believe, cause I think we were married the same year. The, the first main expectation gap that you, actually there was even let's go back a step before that, to your parents and as a child kind of what you experienced growing up. Can you take us into a few of these expectation gaps and what God has taught you along the way?
Jim Barnard: [00:12:53] Yeah, man, I'm glad you asked. So yeah, childhood was rough for me. I grew up in a really broken home. There was just a lot of chaos in my house, that was ripe. I don't know what else to say. It was just, it was hard. And my parents finally got divorced when I was in sixth grade. But there were seasons of separation. You know, my dad traveled a lot. My mom struggled with mental illness. And there's just a lot in that. And when they finally got divorced, there was so much grief and so many like traumatic moments that happened all at once, and I didn't know how to handle it. I honestly didn't. I had no concept. I had never seen grief handled before. And, you know, I was stuck at home with my mom who was dealing with her own grief. My siblings were all older and out of the house. My dad had moved out. You know, it's just kind of stuck there. All I knew about myself is that I hated how I felt and I didn't want anyone to know. So I shut down. I became a selective mute. I like literally didn't talk on a given day basis. If I, if I could avoid it, right. Like, if a teacher would call on me, I would certainly, you know, respond with as few words as possible. I didn't want to be rude, but outside of that, just never talking. I was really like, the only way I can describe it is I was a depressed kid. I would literally hang out, not just in my bedroom, I would hide in my closet. And the closet became a great analogy for depression. And that went on for a few years and thankfully I met Jesus. And Jesus changed everything for me. I, you know, was able to step out of the depression clause and begin to participate with people and community and, you know, grew up to be the class clown and, you know, all that in high school and stuff. And I just I remember being so grateful for what the Lord had done in my life at that point because I just, without Him, I don't know how I would have navigated out of it. I think I was stuck. Which, you know, kind of to transition into the more like modern part of the story is when I got married to my amazing wife, Alicia, we had no idea what was coming. And, you know, three months into our married life, she got really sick. Like everything fell apart. She's got this weird chronic illness that we had no idea about. It's called Ehlers-danlos syndrome. It's a connective tissue disorder. For some people, it's like in their joints, they're like contortionists. They can bend their joints in any direction. For her, it's mainly in her abdomen. And so there's like no muscle tone in her digestive system, pushing food through all of her core organs had prolapsed or fallen out of place. She now has cow tissue and mashing and tax, trying to keep things where they're supposed to be. But when it all fell apart, Jeff, like, I didn't know what to do. I think that grief is a habit. And my grieving habit was to shut down, to isolate, was to step into a depression closet. And so that's what I started to do at that point. You know, Alicia was up at the Mayo Clinic for three months trying to get some, you know, legitimate help for all this stuff. And I couldn't be with her most of that time. It was just like such a crazy time. I, I just was over my skis, I didn't know what to do. And thankfully, I was part of a community, a church community that knew me and loved me. And they were like, Man, you're not alone. Like, we're going to, we're going to be in this with you. We're going to experience victory together. And they held my arms up when I was weak and weary. And it really, really made a difference in my life. So I, you know, it's just kind of the contrast between the two. It felt really good to not be alone and to, you know, not have to choose that, that isolated closet, you know.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:01] So and I, I really appreciate learning about how your friends, the thread of friendships through, I mean this entire 18, yeah roughly 18 year journey since that first kind of diagnosis first like suffering moment of, this is not what we expected.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:21] We'll return to the conversation with Jim Barnard in just a minute. But want to make sure you guys know about the DadAwesome Accelerator. So when we took the first group of dads, ten dads through a six week coaching cohort called the DadAwesome Accelerator, it has been over the top. The feedback from these dads and how it's affected their families, their relationship with their kids, their leadership in their local church. So many aspects of their life has changed because of investing six weeks into a deep dive into the DadAwesome Accelerator. So I want to encourage you guys, we've got a few spots left for this fall's cohorts. You need to apply by the end of September by emailing awesome@dadawesome.org. So simply send an email awesome@dadawesome.org. It will immediately email you back, the flyover of the experience and what we expect and what we're going to deliver and how to prayerfully apply. So email awesome@dadawesome.org. Let's jump right back into my conversation with Jim Barnard. I know there's been so many ups moments of like we think we're on to healing and then downs and and feeling like even the, the loss from like medical professionals and you guys in a direction that was so hurtful and so harmful and and just through, what are some of the threads that helped sustain you guys? Community, you mentioned, it was one and we'll get into even deeper into the story but like what are what are some of the other pieces that you, you look back and you're like that would that was part of what helped us get through?
Jim Barnard: [00:18:53] Yeah. I mean, I don't know how anyone does this life without Jesus. Like this life's too hard. How do we do this without Him? I would say, you know, to paint the picture more clearly, my wife has, like, sufficiently gone downhill. Like, ever since getting sick. Like she has lost tons of weight and capacity. She is, you know, can't drive. She can't work. She's on disability. Like it is, it has been incredibly hard. And it's forced me, this suffering has forced me to to acknowledge that I can't save myself. I can't save her. I am in need of help. Obviously, we are all in need of a Savior. But I really needed Jesus in the here and now to help me get through every single day. I mean, she has spent hundreds of nights in the hospital. She's had dozens of surgeries. She's essentially died on me twice. I've held her lifeless body in my arms twice. And that's all too much for me. But praise the Lord I've gotten to suffer with Him and not be alone. Obviously community is part of that, but just choosing to acknowledge that His presence is actually with me, actually inside of me. And I'm not alone in this. I can actually suffer with Him and He knows a thing or two about suffering. So it's a, it's a, you know, a pretty beautiful thing that, you know, the the God of all comfort can comfort me and then I can turn around and comfort others. Like, makes a huge difference.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:38] And, and I know dreams, many of the dreams that you thought would be the case in the first 18 years of marriage and family, have not been realized. These dreams, one of the dreams around being parents. You were told with absolute like you cannot and should not. And it will, could, your wife could die. The baby could die if something like, would you tell us that story? And because I think the dad life has entered in different ways for, and there's been so, so many amazing miracle stories about dads that are holding their babies or have their kids now. And and were told it was impossible. But I think your story will just bring so much hope. So could you share the story about that?
Jim Barnard: [00:21:25] Yeah, absolutely. I would love to. It is crazy. I, we had wanted to become parents really badly and we had seen, I swear, every specialist in town just trying to figure out, how does this work? Is it possible? And every doctor said the same thing, impossible to get pregnant and super impossible for you to carry a pregnancy. Just, it's not going to work. And we had a friend who offered to be our surrogate and we had never considered that before. Just never really had our, you know, thought of process and like, okay, like, is that is that weird? Is that cool? Like, how should we feel about that? So we had gone to see one of these doctors that told us, no, you should not consider this. And we knew he was a believer. And so we wanted to ask him the moral implications of surrogacy. Like, is this, is this something that God would frown upon? Is this okay? Like, you know, you're not the judge and jury, but help us think it through, you know. So he starts defending why he loves surrogacy and it doesn't feel like it's sinful and he's defending his case. And then Jeff, suddenly he just stops talking, like it's almost like he's like drifting off into another world. And I'm like, Dr. DeRosa, are you having a stroke? Like, are you okay? I can call 911. I can get someone right. And he suddenly kind of snaps back to and he's like, I, I'm so sorry, I, I feel like God is telling me to tell you something. And it's the last thing I want to tell you, but I have to be obedient. I think you need to die to this dream. I think you need to give up the dream of having a child. Now, if you want to push forward, please let me be your doctor. You know, I, you know, I'm not going to judge you. I want to, I really care about you guys. But I had to be obedient to tell you. And when he said that, it did, it was like a zap inside of a leash. And I, we're like, okay, like, that is so painful to hear. But that is from the Lord. Like, we knew unequivocally that was, you know, from from God. And so we broke down. We like go out into this busy hospital and have like somehow five minutes alone in an empty elevator. And we just break down, we're crying, we're like upset, but also, like, relieved, like God wasn't the answer we wanted, but it was the answer He was giving us. And so we're like, okay, we'll do that. We'll be the best aunts and uncles we can be. And we're just, it's okay. We'll trust you, Lord. And then that night, she gets pregnant. And it was unbelievable. I didn't believe it. I was equal parts, excited and terrified, right. Because, like, what is happening? Like we gave up. It was, it was almost like having to climb up the mountain with your beloved son and, like, you know, you hold the knife up. And I'm like, all right, Like, I killed that dream, and now you give it to me. Like, what? And God did a miracle, Jeff. There's no two ways around it. Like, Alicia got healthier during her pregnancy. She could actually eat and was actually able to put on weight, and she wasn't able to carry this pregnancy to full term. She got to almost 32 weeks of 40. But we've got this little boy who was born super tiny, 3 pounds, 14oz. I could hold him in my two hands like he was just adorable. And it's like, you know, he was so compromised. He'll spend like 26 days in the NICU, which is brutal. But I remember praying over him, praying over Anderson as he is just like, so tiny. And I'm like, Lord, this makes no sense to me. Why would you give me this gift? I know perfectly healthy people you haven't given this gift to. But the only way this makes sense is you must have a calling for this kid's life. So help me be a good dad that he would know You as Heavenly Father and that he would be prepared for whatever it is that that You're calling him into. And God met me in this little hospital room, Jeff, like it really was nuts, it was palatable. God, for years, you know, as Alicia is getting sicker and sicker was, you know, poking at me and revealing things about maybe I should go into ministry. And I just I was like, there's no way. Like, look at the complicated life You've given me. I think ministry is complicated. There's no way, I'm not going to do it. Like, it's just too much. I would give God the Heisman stiff arm. And when God met me in the stream, he's like, All right, well, what if in 20 or 30 years from now I come to Anderson and it doesn't matter if he's got a good excuse or a bad excuse, if he were to tell me no about going into ministry, how would you feel as his earthly dad? And I just was crushed, like, wow, what a guilt trip. That's amazing. Like, okay. God. I, I would be disappointed. Disappointed as how that's the only answer. And God disappeared and let me sit in that disappointment until I finally relented and said, Fine. What? Where? How? Answer the stupid questions and I'll just stinking do this already. And that's when God sent us out of our amazing community and moved us from Saint Louis to to Denver for me to go to seminary. And it was awesome to be able to ski, but everything else was miserable. But I had to be faithful to it, you know. God had called me out and I wasn't sure what He was sending me into, but I knew I had to model this for my son who, you know, could barely eat or sleep or like breathe at that point. But I had to model it. Yeah, it was nuts.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:31] I mean modeling obedience in the, child is too young to even know that you're modeling obedience, but the seeds are planted and the story is written that he now knows as an almost 14 year old. But the layers of change from friends leaving friends to the church you were a part of to the pre dad life. You don't have a little one, now you have a little one. And then add in seminary to it like, that's a lot. And then in that journey there's another negative turn for, yeah, for your wife's health and like just raising your son while caring for your wife. It's so hard to even, like ask questions because it feels like like there's how is that even possible? Would you tell us a little bit about that chapter and that journey of kind of young raising your son while trying to navigate medical help?
Jim Barnard: [00:28:32] Oh my gosh. There is so much that we were juggling all at the same time. You know, getting my master's degree part time, working full time. Really full time plus, because I swear, the enemy would just punk me and I would have to stay late at work almost every day because some debacle would happen and it was miserable. And, you know, Alicia's pretty limited. And Anderson needs a dad and his dad's off doing who knows what you know. And it just that juggling act was really hard. And Alicia ended up, I think the story that you're referring to is she had gotten like an MRI or a Cat Scan or something one day and the the doctor called us up just a few minutes after the test happened. Like, typically it takes 24 hours to read the the results. And the doctor called right back and was like, hey, you need to go to the hospital. You are in trouble. And, and so we were like, okay, well, we'll go there. And it was kind of nice to have a day off from work to take her to the appointment. And so we were kind of chilling at a restaurant at the point. And so that phone call came in and then like a minute later, a phone call came in saying, Hey, Anderson has double pinkeye at preschool and so you need to come and pick him up. And I'm like, what in the world is happening? Like, all of this is crashing down. And that season, Alicia was in real trouble. It's one of the two times where, like, she nearly essentially died on me. There's just so much happening. And I had to go on FMLA to try to keep things together for myself, for my family. I don't know, man. Like that was a really low point where I had no idea what I was doing. Like, I could not tell you which direction was up at that point. And thank goodness I was able to get that, you know, 90 days off of work. And God changed everything. Literally on the 90th day, He provided a job at a church that was going to be better work life balance for me. And it was, it was going to send me in a trajectory that I couldn't have guessed.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:30:55] Jim, our two conversations we've had, I had the chance to just connect over the phone and now through the video screen. I, I read this quote, so I'll read a quote that I think is word for word, but sometimes when I voice note while I'm reading books, they mess up a little bit. Correct me if it's off, but this this idea of where you're at today and what you're doing and how you've encouraged me and how you're leading and coaching and helping couples and helping men, with knowing your backstory. Does not like, there is no way you get from here to here. Like it, just like that to me feels like those are two different people. And I know you're still like, this is not an overcoming posture. Like you haven't overcome, like you're still in this this journey of trust in the unknowns. And but this is, I think this was you, maybe it was, maybe it was somebody else wrote this. It said, Our brains need stories of how others have flourished within their constraints, so that we might know our own hard stories could be the ones of flourishing, too. Was that you or someone writing about you? Do you remember?
Jim Barnard: [00:32:02] Man, I want to take credit for it because that's a great quote. That might have been Jay Wolf.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:09] Writing about you?
Jim Barnard: [00:32:10] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:11] Yes, that's a perfect segue, actually. Okay. So that that alone is just like, that's power. I needed your story over the last week here. Like, because I've heard your story over the last week, we've only known each other that long. Our brains need stories of how others have flourished within their constraints so that we, we're runners, not in heaven. We all have constraints. So we might know our own hard stories can be the ones of flourishing too. I, I see you in so many ways flourishing and helping others flourish. And that's what I just want to, like, speak into and encourage and say that's only God. How would you respond to that quote? And then also, would you talk for a moment about about Jay Wolf?
Jim Barnard: [00:32:55] Yeah, absolutely. So I am a big believer in story. I think story is our greatest gift. It's an unbelievable tool that we can use for evangelism or just building trust with each other. I think we do well when we lean on the power of story. And certainly God didn't give me the story I wanted. I would have loved almost any other story, honestly. But it's the story He's been writing in my life. And I, I am in the middle of it and I'm not at the completion. I'm not, I can't put a pretty bow on it. I, I feel like I'm in a really healthy place and I'm getting to serve others and all that. But yeah, this, this is still a story that is unfolding. But it's the story that God's given me, and I got to use it. And man, I hope people listening to this are reflecting about their own story. I hear so many people say, man, I don't have that good of a story or I don't like my story. I don't want to share it. I don't think it's optional, honestly. I think it's, I think authenticity is required of the Christian walk. And, and so in using my story, I've, I've been able to help people. You know, I run this coaching ministry now called Tiller Coaching, where I help other people who are stuck in their expectation gaps simply by using, you know, certainly my experience of who God is and the scriptures and, you know, a lot of truth, but also my own experience. I serve others through my own expectation gap. And the most amazing part of that, Jeff, is that it helps me overcome my own expectation gap. Like, I hate all of this stuff that's in my story, but it is, it's a privilege. I actually have gratitude for the story that I'm in. I get to sit with people in this office right here and see their lives transformed and, you know, fruit happening in their life because they're getting authentic about their story and they're inviting me in as, you know, part of their community to like, I get to walk with them in their hurt and help them learn to trust Jesus. And it's amazing. So to answer the part about Jay Wolf, like maybe that's like the first time that I had even heard the concept of your story as powerful. Because him and his wife, Catherine Wolf, they have a really unbelievably hard story and they have leveraged it for many years now and have this unbelievable suffering ministry called Hope Heals. And they're just kind of heroes to me. And we've gotten to know them a little bit. And their inspiration is, is I think, bigger than they could even begin to guess. Like I have watched them get dumped on by people. You know, just like, here's the worst thing that's ever happened to me, here's all of my suffering and they just cry with these people and they hold their hands and they pray for them. And I'm like, I don't want to do that, but I think I have to do that. And I'm so glad that I've learned to do that in this context of Tiller Coaching.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:36:25] I've already, in the last week, connected to other dads to Tiller and and I, I made up an answer for one of them about what is it exactly? I kind of made up an answer. And it turns out you told me later I was pretty right on. But the, the, the, the heartbeat of instead of wait to what is perceived of arrival or perceived, I'm on the other side of my challenge or my suffering or my and then help other people. You've made a choice, prayerfully, I know it's been prayerful, to right now you're still me young dad, teenage early teenage phase with your wife, who I mean, Alicia is in a spot where in so many ways the world would say, don't do any serving others, just get a job that requires as little bit of your brain as possible so that you can give all of your care on the home front. And some people's story, that might be exactly what God's leading them to do. So there's no harm, like nothing wrong in that. But you've chosen, and I see such life, like I see your eyes the way you like talk and share in like the power of, you're living a better story today for you, for your story, by serving others than by just serving on the home front, your own family. How did you, how, how do you, how do you help people weigh out that decision though, of is now a circle the wagons focus or is there always a level of we live it and we can help others along the way? What's your take on that?
Jim Barnard: [00:37:57] Yeah, I mean, there's such a tension and all of that. Yeah, people were actually really critical of me in a lot of the stuff. Like, you guys are going to seminary, like you're spending all that time and money and energy and you're walking away from community that you need. Like, that's, you can't do that. I'm like, I would love to not do that, but I just have to, you know, like God's been too clear for me not to. When I started Tiller, I was working in the church here in Denver. And, you know, I wasn't like making a ton of money, obviously working at a church, but I was making a paycheck every single week. And then God like changed everything and pulled me into like, leaving the church and starting this coaching ministry. And I was so fuzzy about what it was, but I wasn't going to give God the Heisman stiff arm anymore. And so He's giving me all this stuff and He's He, He actually like was very clear do not charge people for this. Like this is coaching without barriers. There's no fee, there's no fear, there's no excuses like give it away to people. And I'm like, that's stupid. Like, why would I why would I not charge people like every other coach in the world charges, you know, honestly, quite a bit for their services. But you want me to give it away. And I guess I can tell you the truth, I didn't want to do it. So I went to Alicia and I was like, know I was praying about all this Tiller stuff and felt like God was maybe telling me to, like, not charge people that that's stupid, right? Like, you hate that, right? Like, I should not do that. And Alicia, you know, being smarter and stronger willed and, you know, of more faith was like, yeah, no, that totally makes sense. Like, you can't charge people. I'm like what? I'm the only person providing income for our family. Like, this is so dumb. But I was like, okay, we'll figure it out. So I raised my funds like a missionary would, to give away my time to people that are hurting and, yeah, it makes no sense. And people are right to be a critic of that. But I don't know, I think that if God is going to send you in a direction, I don't think He's going to send you in that direction empty handed. And it's completely worked. Like I've done this four and a half years and I think I haven't gotten a full paycheck maybe twice, which is just absurd. I don't even know how it works. I'm not a good fundraiser. I've literally never asked anyone like, Hey, would you please support my ministry? Like I've literally never done it. God's just really made it happen. So you might be opening the floodgates for me.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:40:45] Here we go.
Jim Barnard: [00:40:45] Sent two people for me, already. It might be a lot of dads listening. And I don't care. Like flood me. I got to do this. I just have to do it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:40:56] There's a direct, like, trickle down from us as dads getting help in this area. So you have the three D's disappointed, dissatisfied, distressed. So basically every dad listening right now is like yeah can, can resonate to two out of the three, right. And and if we can figure out with strength of story, God's story is truth, our own story, the story that He's inviting us into. If we can live into like getting healed and helped in these areas. And then if a dad can bring some of these tools, they learned from you to their kids.
Jim Barnard: [00:41:37] The whole scenario is really hard because, you know, like a Alicia is really limited. Like life is really contained to being on the couch. She can only have the energy to get out of the house maybe one time a week. And often that's for medical treatment or a doctor's appointment or something. And so I have to be a little extra for my son and I'm doing it on like a little bit of borrowed time of, like, trying to be obedient to God. And it's a really hard thing to balance for sure. But I'm a cuddly dad and I know Alicia can't be overly cuddly, so I climb up into bed with him every night and he's still okay with that at almost 14. I know it's going to change at some point, but until he's like, Dad, That's weird. I'm going to keep doing it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:42:32] Oh my goodness.
Jim Barnard: [00:42:33] Give him everything I can.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:42:33] It's funny, I wanted to ask you about that specific thing because you were, in humor, in your book, It's hilariously written. I think one of, one of the credits, like one of your friends or recommendation, said Jim Gaffigan style humor threaded throughout like the hardest thing you can ever imagine. And I agreed. I was like, yes. But the I had never heard the term, I give young dad advice all the time. I'm like, Turn up the heat in your house, take your shirt off and cuddle with that little baby. Like I'm like, yeah, do it as often as possible. And a lot of dads have never heard that. Or you'll see a picture in the hospital like a cold hospital room with the dads wearing a sweatshirt, a hoodie, and the baby's on the outside of the sweatshirt. I'm like, I might call my dad up like, get your shirt off, man, put a blanket over the baby.
Jim Barnard: [00:43:20] Yeah, kangaroo time.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:43:20] So, I didn't know, is did you name it that or is that what it's actually called?
Jim Barnard: [00:43:23] I think that's what it's actually called. We learned it in the Nicu. I don't think I made it up.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:43:29] Kangaroo time.
Jim Barnard: [00:43:29] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:43:29] Or it's a yeah, it's whatever the hospital was that was this, that was their thing. So kangaroo time, I'm going to start using that term now. I am just such a fan. And the fact that you can still have like a relationship with your son that is like you can you can cuddle like that is such a like, yes. Yes, Dads that have trust and intimacy with their kids in a way that, man, I am, the morning hugs for my four girls are still like the most precious. I'm like, Yes, Lord, help it last as long, as long as possible. I was going to ask, Jim, and well, first, just my gratitude for you and for living a life that is free. That is alive. That is interesting. Those are the three that you pray for in your church and others, and you're doing it. You're doing it. So thank you. Your joy is contagious and joy makes no sense when I read through your book of the story. Although I see threads that you found it in all the moments versus just saying it, man, it's all hard. Like choosing joy. Thank you. I wanted to invite you, any last couple of minutes, words, anything else you wanted to share with us? And then would you say a prayer over all of us at DadAwesome.
Jim Barnard: [00:44:51] I'd love that. Jeff, thank you. I feel like you're my best friend now. Like, this has been so good and you're really encouraging. Man I, I guess the one thing that is kind of missing from the story is just that depression has has carried through. Like I, there are seasons where my depression that I exhibited as a child has continued to bubble up. And, you know, a few years ago I had to take that really seriously. And I went down to Florida, down in your neck of the woods, to check into a treatment center to get help with depression. And I was mortified about that. Like I was a pastor at a church and was like, I should be able to pray it away. I should be able to, like, trust the Lord enough, you know. But I needed physical help for my physical problem. And I would just say that like if, if that expectation gap and in, you know, a listener's life is so real and if feels like the depression hole is just insurmountable and don't, don't go it alone. It's actually one of the things I love most about my coaching is like and I don't I don't know what I'm doing, but I have some of this experience, you know. Like if I was a football coach, I know how to block and tackle, so I'm going to teach you how to block and tackle and, you know, go over here and do this, right. And, you know, even just that one experience of humbling myself to to go to this treatment center, I've, I've helped guys do that exact same thing or similar things. I've helped get them in with counselors, psychiatrists like the toll of the expectation gap is real. And we shouldn't ignore that. Like, I think we actually have to own reality on some level. And so I guess just to wrap up and I'll and, I'll pray here in a moment, it's like, please don't go it alone. Like, you can walk with someone else and it really can make all the difference. And yeah, I'm just really grateful to, thank you for your kind words. It is a privilege to share my story every time and, you know, try to encourage anyone I can. It makes the sting of the story go away.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:47:09] Thank you.
Jim Barnard: [00:47:11] Yeah. Thank you. Absolutely. All right, Father, thank you for this time. This has been a sacred time for me to be able to share my story and to be able to connect with a new friend and really friends. I have no idea who might be listening to this right now and what they might be going through, but life has a way of bringing expectation gaps and really that, that is the reality of the enemy. He wants to steal, kill and destroy. And that's, that, that is us. He wants to destroy us in real ways and create rifts and separation between us and You, Father and us and other people. And it doesn't have to be that way. We don't have to take ourselves too seriously. We can trust You and learn to not take ourselves too seriously. I pray the free, alive and interesting life over men that might be listening. I know dads out there are tired and weary and in need of of real help. So, Lord, I just ask that Your, Your presence and Your goodness would be on display through each of us and that You would help us know that we are not alone. You've not forget, forgotten us or forsaken us. So, Lord, we just need You. So, Lord, it is with a lot of anticipation and, and hope that we just pray for for You to, to provide. Lord, we love You and we need You. And I ask this in Jesus name. Amen.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:48:50] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 348 with Jim Barnard. The conversation links, the links to Tiller Coaching and his two books and his podcast are all going to be linked out at dadawesome.org/podcast. Guys, I want to encourage you no matter how you have kind of received and approached today's conversation, whatever level of, man, you feel like you're in it right now, stuck, overwhelmed, even on the edge of depression or if you feel like this didn't really apply as much to me. I want all of us to be moving in the direction of a deeper love for the Lord, deeper dependency on Him, deeper experience of His strength, and in growing our trust. So this is a topic that we can be a brother of strength to a friend if we're not currently walking through, so we could be looking from that angle. But also, man, it takes courage to get help. So I encourage you guys to, to, to be that kind of dad that will reach out to ask for help. That will reach out, set up the counselor appointment, to set up the coaching with Tiller Coaching, there's not even a cost threshold or a cost barrier. So, just want to encourage you guys, let's be the dads who are experiencing healing and hope so that we can bring that to those we love. Thanks for listening this week. Thanks for being DadAwesome.
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· 3:27 - "As we'll get into my story, there's just been a lot of suffering, a lot of what I call expectation gaps. You know, we all have hopes and expectations for career, for marriage, for parenting, for life. And often reality comes in underneath that. And that gap between reality and what we hope for is full of disappointment and dissatisfaction and distress. And I hate that. Like I've experienced copious amounts of, you know, expectation gaps. And every single time I'm stuck in the gap, there's an invitation to take myself too seriously, you know, like, woe is me, this is awful. I hate it. Like I'm I want to cope, you know, whatever. And I just I love Richard Foster's book, The Celebration of Discipline. Like that has been kind of a cornerstone book in my life. Where he says at the end that celebration is the thing that can save us from taking ourselves too seriously. [00:04:32][64.9]
· 33:41 - "[My story] is the story that God's given me and I've got to use it. I hope people listening to this are reflecting about their own story. I hear so many people say, I don't have that good of a story or I don't like my story. I don't want to share it. I don't think it's optional, honestly. Authenticity is required of the Christian walk, so in using my story I've been able to help people. "
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