352 | Processing Trauma, Investigating Experiences, and Re-Storying Your Past (Chris Bruno)
Episode Description
As a licensed professional counselor and dad of three, Chris Bruno is acutely aware of how childhood trauma can impact your fatherhood approach. In this conversation, Chris describes the importance of processing your experiences with others, finding healing from the past, and becoming deeply rooted in brotherhood as you raise your kids.
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Chris Bruno is an author, licensed professional counselor, founder of ReStory, and CEO of Restoration Project. He is passionate about the intersection of transformation and adventure. Chris and his wife, Beth, have three young adult children.
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· You became the man you are today because of the guidance or lack thereof from the men who came before you.
· Exploring your own story means confronting the areas you’ve walled off within yourself and processing your experiences with others.
· We are the best fathers when we have brothers alongside us.
· Trauma continues to pass through generations until someone has the courage to feel it.
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Chris Bruno [00:00:39] Trauma passes down through generations until someone has the courage to feel it. It's going to continue to pass down through generations until someone has the courage to feel it and to face it and to and to process it. Let us be those dads. Let us be those guys who stop the generational pass down of trauma.
Jeff Zaugg [00:01:06] This is episode 352 of DadAWESOME. And guys, I am so thankful you're listening today. My name is Jeff ZOG and today's conversation actually was recorded over three years ago. The very first time I brought my family out to Fort Collins, Colorado, I recorded this conversation with our first out-of-state fathers for the Fatherless event. We are headed to partner with Restoration project in Amazing Men's Ministry. Well, their founder, Chris Bruno, and I, we sat down with these microphones. Again, this is over three years ago and had this conversation. I decided today to re feature this conversation because one of my friends actually mentioned the book Man Maker Project. This is Chris's book. We talk about it in this conversation. Chris has written Man Maker projects. He wrote Sage. I actually interviewed him about two years ago about the book Sage. He wrote the book Brotherhood Primer, about deep, deep friendships that we need as men. But my my friend Kelsey just mentioned this podcast recording, and I went back and listened to it. Not not often do I rewind it three years ago and listen back to one of the episodes. I just felt like now is the perfect time to rerelease this conversation. So I'm thrilled for you guys to hear from Chris again the perspective in time. What I reference to my daughters, they're all three years older and so it's a different phase of fatherhood for me. But the principles and the takeaways are so powerful. So buckle up. This conversation is more powerful than ever recorded three years ago. This is episode 352 with Chris Bruno. My daughters had never seen mountains before and we tried it.
Chris Bruno [00:02:55] Never seen mountains.
Jeff Zaugg [00:02:55] Before. So now my little five month old came with us on a trip two weeks, months ago. She doesn't count, so. Yeah, but my. Yeah, my three, five and eight year old have never seen mountains. And today was their first hike in the mountains. And it's a fun it's a fun journey. I mean, the fact that I get to from industry side to, you know, new friends, but also creation and mountains and the first two. So pretty special.
Chris Bruno [00:03:19] Well done. Well done.
Jeff Zaugg [00:03:21] Well. And today, you know, this conversation that she has to chat with you for an episode of DadAWESOME appreciate your willingness to say, hey, let's go for it. Let's share part of your story. Chris, your wife, Beth, you guys have been married 26 years. Yep. Correct. Yep. And three kids, two daughters, 15 and 18 years old. Your son, 21, who I got to share time around a campfire with last trip. Yep. But this. This conversation, I thought just to start it off, to go to a rafting trips you invited you and Greg invited me to join your group of friends. Some of your closest friends? Yeah.
Chris Bruno [00:03:53] Yep. It's our brotherhood. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg [00:03:55] Pretty unique for me to get pulled into another group of very tight friends to say, let's go rafting for a half a day together. And that trip, I just thought to myself, our guide played this role as we the powder is if I say that right.
Chris Bruno [00:04:08] Powder River.
Jeff Zaugg [00:04:08] Yeah. I mean, it was more tense than I expected. I thought the water levels in July would be a little lower, but it was, it was more intense. And our guide, though, played this this role for us of guiding of a vantage point. He knew the river. Our guide played this role of protection, of coaching, of encouragement, of at time fun. We were jousting with other splashing of the rafts. But the guide role on a raft is interesting. The parallels to the dad role and I just wanted for a moment for you to riff on to give you no warning about this question, but could you just riff on maybe some parallels between a rafting guide and a dad?
Chris Bruno [00:04:44] What a great question. You know, that was such a fun day and I'm so glad you came out and joined us on that trip. And it it was super fun. So I the first place I want to go first with that question, Jeff, is you never go down the same river. So even if the river is the same water, you know, route that goes down the mountain and it's the Powder River, it's never the same river, even from day to day, let alone from week to week or season to season. And and yet the guide has been down that river before and he's been down that river in, you know, with high water and low water. He's experienced the rapids when there's, you know, more or less like he's been down that river and yet it's a different river every single time. Yeah. And so I think the thing about fathering and the guide parallel that I would see the first thing is that, first of all, it's our first time down this river, right when we're fathering our kids. And it's not our first time down the river. And I think there's something about that that we can still guide our children down the river that we've never been down before because we've been down rivers before. And there's something about that that gives me the freedom to both make mistakes and explore and see. But I, you know, our guide knows how to read the water and he knows where the rocks generally are and he knows what the pitfalls are. And he knows, you know, all the things about where the danger zones are. And and he still leads us down that. But it's not ever going to be the same as yesterday or the day before. Yeah. So what I've experienced in the past my kids won't experience, but they may experience something similar and that just gives me the freedom to, to kind of journey down the river and see what comes it.
Jeff Zaugg [00:06:31] Well, and, and our guide pointed out, he called it names for these different portions and some of the names are kind of gnarly. The names I don't.
Chris Bruno [00:06:40] Remember any of them.
Jeff Zaugg [00:06:41] But they well, I remember the story about Chuck Norris. Right. And there's a movie film there. I remember.
Chris Bruno [00:06:46] That.
Jeff Zaugg [00:06:46] I should remember, though, the actual is roundhouse rock or something, you know, it should be for Chuck Norris. But but the in the same way, though, our journey of being taken down a river, our dad or lack of having a dad brings about potentially fears or there's just we're going to approach that corner that point to the river a little different because we we were taken down a river before by someone else. And maybe as a reaction, we're going to go way to the other side of the river. Or in another sense, we would actually portage around because we're afraid, because this is the pain I experienced in that portion of the river. Right. And we could take this further and further and further. But would you talk for a moment about what we experienced from our dad and how that's going to come forward? In some ways, what we experience as a kid is going to come forward. Can you just talk about that theme a little bit?
Chris Bruno [00:07:34] Yeah, I mean, we became the man that we are today because of the men that were with us before and the guidance of the men that we had or the lack of guidance of the men that we didn't have, that that is so impactful for who we became. And so the most important person in our lives as far as men goes, is our dad. And again, if he was there or if he wasn't there, that's important. Yeah. And there's a shaping that happens inside of us in his presence, his intentionality, his wisdom, his guidance, just like we were talking about with the raft. Right. All of those things are super important for how we've navigated life. Yeah. And if he's not there or if he's violent in some way, Right. Those there's two ways, I think that men fathers bring destruction into their children's lives. It's either in their absence or in their violence. And in his presence, he brings life. And he brings words and, you know, attention and affection and intention. But when those, you know, whether it's violence or there's absence, there's going to be something significantly kind of shaping in the life in our lives. And the fact is that all of us have that to some degree. Yeah, because we don't live we don't live in the Garden of Eden, and he's not from the Garden of Eden. And so therefore, all of us have some level of wounding and pain that we've experienced, and therefore we bring that in. So in order for us to be the kinds of dads that we want to be that are DadAWESOME dads, right, that it's not that we muster something up, it's more that we need to read our story. It's more that we need to read our story of where we come from. And, you know, an author named Kurt Thompson, one of my favorite, favorite guys. He says that the number one variable for children to grow up with the ability to connect in a secure way in relationships. The number one variable for that to happen is the parents investigation of their story, their own story of their own story. And so, you know, we do bring those things forward. And it's not just like our little mannerisms, you know, like, you know, what kinds of cereal we like to eat or whatever. I got that from my dad or didn't get from that. You know, it's not those kinds of things. It's it is that, but it's so much more. It's so much more like how I was shaped, you know, by his presence or by his absence.
Jeff Zaugg [00:10:01] I wonder if some ways I. So I don't like personality tests. Yeah. I don't like. Yeah. Whether it's Myers-Briggs or Strength finders or any I'm like, I just like the work to figure out how do I tick. Like, I just don't like it. But in some sense, I see the value in it because if I can realize even for my marriage or for like to help my kids realize how God created them and made them, but in the same way, I think many dads, I feel myself in this category, parts of looking back at my own story, I just want to shy away from because like I like to go back into especially the harder parts. Like, I don't really want to though, and I want to dismiss the fact that those things in the past connect to my present and my future and the future for my kids. I want to I want to disconnect. I want to say that's the past. It's the past. Let's leave it there. I know, I know. There's huge value in going backwards that actually I think I think before I ask you to talk about the macro theme, to go back into your story for a moment. You know, you were so kind to share on a Ted Talk and we can link it in the show notes, but if you'd be willing to share about your childhood and not the whole but but specifically around this friendship you had and your sister and parents and just the adventures you went on and now you're a man of adventure, which is interesting that they actually does connect your story. But when you go back in time a little bit and help share that story with us.
Chris Bruno [00:11:25] Yeah, you bet. Thanks for asking. So I did grow up here in Colorado and I am the second child of two. So I have one older sister. And in the lineup, I think, you know, my parents had a couple of miscarriages. Then my sister came along, a couple of more miscarriages. Then I came along and then the kind of stopped and I was born. She's five years older than I am, but I was born into this family with this sister who has severe mental disabilities mental struggles, and she just couldn't operate. And she actually they didn't think she would walk. They didn't think she would talk or eat by herself or any of those kinds of things. And fortunately, through a lot of different therapies and stuff like that, she was able to finally walk and all that. But that's the that's the environment, the context in which I was born into. Now I'm a little bit older than you. Jeff So this was in the, you know, late 60s, early 70s that this was happening. And the world at that point was not equipped to help people with disabilities, not equipped to, you know, help people with disabilities or their parents or anything like that. The the default was institution. Yeah. And there was something beautiful in my parents that just decided we're not going that route. We're not going that route, and we're actually going to keep her at home and we're going to find ways to love on this child and bring her up in the. Context of our own home. And that being beautiful as it was, also had consequences for me. Because her presence in our home continued to bring challenges and difficulties, and she had all kinds of things going on both with mental illness as well as mental disability. And so it was just a very challenging place for me to be. And and they my parents were very focused on helping her and they weren't unloving towards me, but but there wasn't necessarily enough that was coming my direction. We grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and so I had a horse and that was part of my life. I had dogs and all that. And so I would go out into the woods much of the time by myself to get away from what felt really overwhelming and crazy in the house. And and we would just go adventure and ride and I'd be gone for two, three, four, six hours, right. Just out of the house by myself. And what the story that I share in the in the TEDTalk is how at one point my horse died and there was something about that experience where I was in the house watching the vet with with the horse outside. They were outside in the corral. And I watched my horse collapse. And it was in that moment that something inside of me collapsed as well. And I couldn't do anything. I couldn't get out to the horse. My parents had said, Don't go out there. And I was 13 years old. And so something inside of me collapsed. And I remember distinctly kind of making a vow inside of my own soul, this little 13 year old boy vow of I'm not going to give my heart to another like that again, because he had become my companion horse. He had been he had become the the the one thing, the one experience that I had that gave me some sense of like, attachment and attunement and life and presence and all that. And now he was gone. And now what was I going to do? Right? And that collapsed inside of me is actually something that I have had to work on pretty hard to, to trust God for, to move into, to explore my own story so that I can then be present, not collapsed, but present to my wife and to my kids. And it it played out throughout much of my adult life until I kind of woke up to how much that story, the internal collapse was leaking out into my family, where I wasn't present in the places that I thought I was present or needed to be present. And and it just kind of came out of that place of my commitment, my vow that I had made and wasn't going to give my heart, even though I loved my wife and I committed to her, I covenanted with her and had my kids. I love them. There is something still that I held back.
Jeff Zaugg [00:15:43] And when you say a collapse, can you describe a little more or even put other descriptors to it to help us understand what that might be like to to have a moment that causes a change inside him?
Chris Bruno [00:15:58] Yeah. I mean, so I say collapse because I watched my horse literally collapse on the ground. But there was something inside of me that shut down. Yeah, Closed off, walled off, pulled away. And it was almost like I felt myself just, you know, pull into myself. Yeah. And it wasn't like I was going to offer that part of myself to someone else again because it was far better to be distant than disappointed.
Jeff Zaugg [00:16:23] Yes. In that the walled off, I think is the visual for me is really like easy to think about. Like I'm going to play it safe. So put up walls and keep this distance so that I'm not hurt again.
Chris Bruno [00:16:35] Right now.
Jeff Zaugg [00:16:37] Or have some that.
Chris Bruno [00:16:38] I just want to say to like. And it wasn't because anybody did anything intentional, intentionally harmful to me. Yeah, right. It wasn't that the horse died on purpose or my parents were being mean or whatever. It was all just the circumstances that surrounded it that shaped the story of who I became, both needing a horse to be my best friend and my adventure buddy because there was no one else around me that was part of it. Also, the attention that my sister got from my parents that I then didn't get as much. Also that in that moment my horse collapsed and I made a commitment to to stay away, to wall off.
Jeff Zaugg [00:17:19] So I'm thinking forward to my own for girls. And are there opportunities every week, every month, every year that could become a moment accidentally as a dad that caused a collapse of walling off a hurt that could potentially be carried forward? Roughly how many decades do you get for.
Chris Bruno [00:17:39] A few more.
Jeff Zaugg [00:17:40] Than one? Yeah. Yeah, course. One for sure.
Chris Bruno [00:17:44] Yeah. And here's the thing. Yes, the answer is yes. There are always those kinds of. Possibilities because we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world full of brokenness and wounding and and harsh words and bullies on the playground and and, you know, teachers whom, you know, coaches who yell and like dads who yell, whatever it is, like there's our children grow up in that world. But here's the thing, Jeff, and that is that these I call these big T traumas and little T traumas. Okay? So Big T traumas are those massive earth shattering events that happen in someone's life that you start to tell the story and and you're like, like, that's big. Right. Those are the big T traumas. There's the little T traumas that are are like what I would say, just, you know, I just shared, you know, my horse dying is in my world. It was a big T trouble. But for most of the world, it's this little T trauma. Okay? It's it's not something huge like a parent dying or or a car crash or something like that that shook our world. It's the little t traumas that also needs someone to come alongside of you and help you process. Yeah. Another favorite author of mine, he says that we are heaps of undigested experience. We're heaps of undigested experience. And and if we have it, just think about indigestion. When you have indigestion, there's something unwell about your body, you know? And so if there's undigested experience, there's something unwell about your soul. And we need someone to come alongside of us and to be with us and partner with us and, and, and talk through those things with us to digest the experience so that in that moment we can make meaning in a way that that won't be a traumatic meaning. It won't be one of those collapsed or vows or walled off moments in a life, You know, it had a parent walked back into the house.
Jeff Zaugg [00:19:44] Right.
Chris Bruno [00:19:45] Had a mom or a dad come back to me and sat with me on my bed and let me cry it out and and listened to me and shared with me and empathize with me and all that. I probably wouldn't have walled off maybe a little bit, but not as not to the degree that I did. Yeah. And so that's that digesting of our experience is so vital and so important. So when you say your daughter's right, you're out there and and there's all these kinds of things in the world. What makes a trauma is the is the actual event causing the trauma. But what makes it a kind of an overwhelming or traumatic or tragedy over a lifetime is that there is no one to process or digest experience with you? Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg [00:20:28] And that could be, I would imagine, even little T trauma could be mom or dad playing that role, helping them understand how this affected this is a significant part of your story. This is like it's a validate, encourage and hug and pray with. But there might be times that some of us dads actually need to bring someone else in to help a child. Yeah. Would you talk a little bit about even maybe some of those resources you started? How many years ago did you start restoration?
Chris Bruno [00:20:52] 11 years ago.
Jeff Zaugg [00:20:53] Yeah. So I mean, in the Colorado area, but also even digitally. I know you serve.
Chris Bruno [00:20:57] Yeah, we're over the US. Yeah. Yeah. So we were never designed we were never meant to parent alone. And I think there's something that we can learn from our international brothers and sisters who who are in communities of, of a lot more tight knit, a lot more connectedness than we are in America. Just this morning, my wife and I were on Zoom with some friends of ours who are in the slums of Nairobi, Kenya. They actually they're Kenyan. They actually live there. And just this week, there was a massive fire in the coronary slum in Nairobi. 500 homes were decimated in this place. People were displaced. One guy died like it was so incredibly bad. And it was amazing to watch as we talked with them about how the community, not the government, not, you know, not agencies the community is taking care of of those 500 families while they're being absorbed into the community to be taken care of and fed and and sheltered and all that. We were never meant to parent alone. And so we need two things, okay? I think we need as fathers, we need brothers. We are our best father when we have our best brothers with us. Yes. And so we need those guys. And those are the guys that you came in and went rafting with, you know, with me? Yeah, those are those are those guys in my life and we need our brothers. But then also, sometimes we need someone else who's on the outside, who's got some training, is a professional in some ways to come alongside to create a safe space for a child to unfold. Yeah, for a child to kind of just have the experience of telling a new person about. Are life and having that person both be mindful and reflective around what the child is trying to say and then helping the parents come alongside the child. In some ways, because I don't know about you, Jeff, but my kids trigger the heck out of me. They trigger the story in me to no degree like there is there. There are only a few people who trigger me so significantly. It is my wife and is my kids.
Jeff Zaugg [00:23:14] Okay, That's all there is. Cause I'm four days into a 24 day road trip, and in all the year I see in the morning was a tough morning. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Bruno [00:23:23] So I'm probably triggered more by my kids, which means that I can't actually be as available to my kids as I want to be. And so I need help. I need someone to come alongside of me. And there have been people in my kids lives that have been there for them in some really hard places. Mentors, counselors, coaches, teachers. My friends who have taken them under their wing for a season. It's so, so important for for people to make that available to their kids.
Jeff Zaugg [00:23:54] So when I felt this because we were at a campfire together a couple of months ago and your son joined us for this campfire and watching him interact with our mutual friend, one of your best friends. Greg To me that was like a gift. The moment of watching a 21 year old interact with a tree almost at times. If I didn't know better. Who's his dad? Is it you? Is it? Or is he just one of the buddies? Like it was like this? Interesting. One of my hopes is to have other some of my best friends and their wives play that kind of role for my daughter. So I got to see. So that inspired me to go into it a little deeper into how that might look to move towards having those kind of friendships that our kids could really benefit from.
Chris Bruno [00:24:35] Well, I mean that our friendships that our kids can benefit from first have to be friendships that we benefit from.
Jeff Zaugg [00:24:44] Okay.
Chris Bruno [00:24:45] Right. And there's something about that that we go beyond the the hang out buddy, the, you know, pickup game of basketball, the workout buddy watching a football game like all of that is beautiful and good. But we need to move from buddy into brother. And and to go from buddy to brother requires the two of you men or the three of you, the five of human, to be willing to engage those parts of your lives in your stories that we've been talking about today. Yes. That that those men know my story and they have offered their compassion. They've offered their empathy. They've offered their question, their curiosity. And they've also and they've also when they see me walling off. Now they know where the story comes from and they're able to not like hit me upside the head with a two by four, but more so gently, come along side of me and asked me the question, Is this what you would like to do right now? Wow. And that's the kind of brother who's on your side and is there for you not to correct you, but to invite you back to the man that you were meant to be. And those are the kinds of men that I want my children to know. Those are the kinds of men that will benefit my children. Because now if I can trust them with my story, then I can trust them with theirs.
Jeff Zaugg [00:26:11] We will be right back to this second half of the conversation with Chris Bruno. But I wanted to quick pause and invite you guys to leave us a message. So we have now it's linked in all the show notes, a leave a voice message for DadAWESOME and basically lets you leave a 92nd voice message, find a quiet room. And we'd love to hear your voice. If you could introduce yourself, your name, where you're from. And then these are the three options. One is a reflection on, Hey, this is something I've learned or something I've put into practice or something that Matt DadAWESOME has helped me in this way. Another option is we'd love to hear feedback, so just let us know, hey, other ways that we could be creating DadAWESOME molding the direction, the vision to be more helpful to you as a dad. And the third is just general encouragement. So we would love to hear you guys. Also, bonus, if you have any direct stories of like I did this and this would have been hilarious or really impactful, meaningful stories. So really it's open to whatever you want to do. But we want to hear from you. Sometimes will feature those short clips on the podcast to encourage other dads. So we're going to do that right now. Here's an example of one of the clips, one of the columns.
Speaker 2 [00:27:23] Hey, this is Brad from Pryor Lake, Minnesota, and I've been following the DadAWESOME content for the last few years and have been very grateful on many ways. But if I could really boil it down, I would say that DadAWESOME has really given me a continued reminder to be intentional as a father. It is so easy to be passive, to just coast, to let my wife and the mother of my children do a lot of the work. But I'd say it's really challenge me to elevate it, to say, how can I be intentional and just given me a new vision? There's so many things in my life that I intentionally grow at and I'm so intentional with and strive for, but sometimes that the role of father can kind of take a backseat. So it's just been a sweet reminder for me and so many ways to really be thoughtful, to be intentional, and just to really be the best dad that I can be to the children God has given me. So I'm so grateful for dad. Awesome.
Jeff Zaugg [00:28:20] So all you have to do is to look in the shownotes for the link to leave us a voice message. And we can't wait to hear from you. Podcasting sometimes can be just like one way. I just you get to hear my voice, but I don't get to hear yours with love to hear from you. And it's linked in all the show notes here. We're back to the second half of the conversation with Chris Bruno. The journey of learning each other's stories, choosing to write an intentional story, and now helping your kids write their stories I know actually had to do with adventure and mountains. And so some of what you're, you know, your closest companion friend, your horse experience with you as a kid now forward you know, I.
Chris Bruno [00:29:04] Actually have humans who do that with me. That's sort of a thrill right now.
Jeff Zaugg [00:29:09] A little old time at times is okay. But like what I did, I got to tap into seen it on that rafting trip. Right. I mean, I've seen this is not just let's sit and talk about what what high and low for the past week and let's we actually went out adventure together and a lot of those conversations happened all around me. I got to just drop in him and fantastic but talk about would you just explore with us how how we could maybe move in the direction of shared experiences versus just intentional friendships throughout a small group or something like that?
Chris Bruno [00:29:39] Yeah, well, it takes an intentional question, and so it takes someone who's willing to ask a question that's not a kind of flyover question, just like you said, a high low. What How was your week? You know, are you guys how are you doing? And you treat your wife well, like that kind of thing. You need someone who's willing to ask what we call a deep dive question. And those deep dive questions are not staying at that. At that level. They're asking something just really, really down. So, for example, one of the things I don't know about you, one of the things that we do in our Brotherhood group is we like to drink scotch and whiskey. Okay. So one of the traditions that we have around a Scotch whiskey is that we don't drink it all the time. But when we do, in those special occasions, if there's a if there's a 12 year old Scotch or a 16 year old Scotch or. Yeah, even a 17 or 21 year old Scotch where we asked the question 17 years ago today, what was happening in your life? What was going on for you and how did you get there? Okay. There's a deep dive question. Now it's asking for some information. But really what we want is not just the content of what was happening, but we want the context of what was that like for you? Yeah, and that's the difference between just hanging out with the pals and going to that brother level is what was that like for you? Help me understand what it felt like to walk in your shoes. You know what it felt like to be on that horse in the mountains, what it felt like to be, you know, in these different situations as as a child. What was that like?
Jeff Zaugg [00:31:14] Yeah, it it's amazing the power of the story. The power of 17. You just triggered in an intentional way my mind to go 17 years ago. Yep. And and it's just some memories just popped into my mind that I haven't thought about, maybe ever. But it takes an intentional person to ask the question.
Chris Bruno [00:31:35] I that's the question. Yeah. And so for all of you listeners, like, what were you doing 17 years ago today? Whenever you're listening to this podcast, back up 17 years ago and, and then tell someone about that. Yeah, tell someone about that. Tell your brothers, tell your wife. Tell someone what it was like for you, not just the content, like I said, but what was the experience like for you? Yeah, because then you're actually inviting them into a place and you just said yourself, I haven't thought about those memories in years. They live within you. Yeah, they live within you. Every. Everything. Every moment of our lives, every age we have ever been continues to live in us. And so we, being adult men now, right on the other side, we're adult men. But on the inside we have I have a five year old inside of me. I have a 13 year old. I have a 17 year old. I have a 21 year old. Of all those parts of me that are still that are still there that inform how I am and how I. Father. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg [00:32:35] I believe that our Heavenly Father can heal outside of time. Back to moments that healing ripples its way back through time and we experience way more benefit. Or do you believe the same?
Chris Bruno [00:32:47] Totally.
Jeff Zaugg [00:32:48] Totally, totally. When you talk about that?
Chris Bruno [00:32:51] Well, here's the thing is that God does not heal memories because memories are kind of locked in. He heals stories. Yes, but not a memory doesn't become a story until it is told to another person.
Jeff Zaugg [00:33:05] So it must have a brother. We must tell.
Chris Bruno [00:33:07] It has to come out of our body and into a space in the in between. It has to come out of our mouths into into a relationship. What's broken in relationship is healed in relationship. And so if I'm going to heal those parts of me, it needs to be in the in between between us. I need to tell you my story. And it's fascinating. As you look over the course of human history, how stories are so deeply woven into every part of humanity. And it's how we find ourselves. It's how we identify ourselves as how we become who we are. Right. And even just think about sports teams and the stories that surround sports teams and what sports sports team you support, which when you don't, there's stories there. And it's not because of the team, right? It's because of the relationships around the team. Yeah. And so that's where memories are. God wants to go backwards into our lives and heal all of those big T and little tiny moments in our lives. But we can't do that. We don't do that just by remembering to ourselves. Right? Is where we when I invite you, Jeff, into my story and I have someone witness and be with me in the story and experience with me and empathize with me what happened in the story. That's where healing actually happens. And I can go back to my 13 year old would say, Sure, but heard about today or my five year old and the ripple effect from my five year old to my, you know, 48 year old now, that's that can be that can happen in a matter of minutes.
Jeff Zaugg [00:34:43] Yeah. Wow. So many potential directions to take the position, which I love the I mean, just casually you've been using the term story and story, and I think it's important to go a little further into this writing of a story and that we are a part of the beginning of writing of our kids stories. Would you explain just a step more what you mean by the term risk story and then talk about the, in parallel, a dad story and a child's story?
Chris Bruno [00:35:15] Okay. That's that's a lot. Yes, I'm happy to. So, first of all, I believe that God actually made us with divine intention. Psalm 139 talks about how he wove us and knit us together. And then Ephesians talks about how before the creation of the world, the thought of us brought God pleasure right here. Yes. Okay. So before he even made you, Jeff, you were bringing God pleasure. Just the thought of what he was going to do with you and for you and in you and how he was going to image himself in you. All of that made him laugh and smile and play.
Jeff Zaugg [00:35:55] Can I interrupt you for a second? Yeah, I have a visual, a truth that God gave me that is my Heavenly Father. Set the scoreboard to infinity so I can see of a high school scoreboard the symbol infinity. That, like, that's the kind of pleasure. So that was a gift to me when God showed me scoreboards that infinity. You can't subtract from that. You can't add to it. There's pleasure surrounding it. So yeah, I love that you just affirmed it. Yeah, Yeah.
Chris Bruno [00:36:19] And you know, that's the meaning of grace. And I think grace actually means that we're given this favor, that delight, the pleasure, and nothing can detract from it and nothing can add to it. Grace is is bi directional. We can't do anything to earn more. And looking at we can't do anything to to reduce it. It's just his sheer pleasure. Okay. That is his intention for who you were designed to be. And you were born into a world that is broken and fallen and no longer in Eden. And so all of those little traumas and big teacher, all the stories you've lived that have had some shaping aspects, some shaping influence to who you've become, Right. Those still, like I said, live within you. And we come to an interpretation of ourselves. We make the vows, we make the commitments we we come to believe something about ourselves that is off. It is off center from what God originally designed and all the beautiful glory that he wrote into you. Right in the way that I talk about it is that God made you with the first story. But we come to believe a second story. Yeah. And there's something else that we come to believe. Now I and my story about my horse, like I believed, came to believe. I interpreted. I came to understand through that experience that I am alone and I will need to stay alone. And it is actually far better to be alone. Now. God did not design me to be Lance. False. That's a false interpretation. That's a false understanding and meaning. But as my little kid was coming to that conclusion, that was the best that I could do back then. But I continue to live out of that for years and years until I trusted him and moved into some places with a counselor and into my story that that I began to realize, this is where that comes from. And there's actually a first story. There's actually a child of delight that still also lives within me that's older than that's the first. It's more original to who he made me to be. And so as I can unpack and get back around to my second to other things, the second story that I came to believe I can slowly start to reveal come into become the man I was designed to be.
Jeff Zaugg [00:38:42] And that is the story.
Chris Bruno [00:38:43] That is the story process. Okay. It's it's not believing that. The second story is actually the true narrative that there is in in C.S. Lewis terms. There is there is a magic deeper still. There is a story deeper still to who we were designed to be. So are we.
Jeff Zaugg [00:39:03] Simultaneously are we're storing and writing our future story, is it? Or how does that play out?
Chris Bruno [00:39:11] Yeah. And when when we're restoring, we're coming back to ourselves, like I said. And then we have choices when we have agency to how would I like to engage? Do I want to engage according to my first story or my second story? And this goes back to what I was saying about the brothers. Yeah. That if my brothers know both my second story and my first story, they get to ask me that question. How would you like to engage right now?
Jeff Zaugg [00:39:36] Would you go the next step and talk about how our story is inviting and guiding our kids to begin with? The writing of their in the choosing of which story? The original or the false? Yeah.
Chris Bruno [00:39:50] There's a very well-known passage in Proverbs that talks about to train up a child in the way that they should go. And, you know, and then as they grow up, they will not depart from it. Right. So there's something about that word train that I think we understand wrongly in our culture today. So that word train actually means to awaken. And it was used in that time to to awaken thirst. And when a baby was first born, they would put some like, fig juice or something on the midwife's finger. They would rub it around the inside of the mouth to stimulate thirst, to awaken thirst so that the child would begin to nurse, okay, and begin to latch on and receive the nutrients that they need to awaken. So if if we begin to think about that verse of of awaken, awaken within your child the way that they should go, then when the future they will not depart from it. So if our task as parents, as fathers is to awaken within our children the glory that God has written there, that original story, that image of God written into their lives as He wants to let the world know who He is through them. If we can awaken that in them, then then I think they they will of course, they will still have traumas and tragedies and things that happen to them. Yeah. But the likelihood of them struggling in the ways that many of us have is far less. Yeah. So the other I want to go back to what I said also, that it is our job as fathers is not to protect our children from pain. Our job as fathers is to help us help our children navigate through pain. Yeah. It's like the guide is not to keep his job, is not to keep us from getting wet. Right. Okay. His job is to help us navigate the river safely. And that's what our job as fathers is. Here's how you go down a dangerous river. Here's how you live in a dangerous world is not to protect us from the danger. And yes, we had life jackets and helmets and all those kinds of things. But but but there's something about as we help our children navigate forward, that's that's really the task at hand.
Jeff Zaugg [00:42:13] Well, this is maybe a little different question. Hard to answer at times, but through your wife, Beth, through her eyes, she was going to look back at maybe ten years ago, the dad that you were then. Any any just top of mind. This is an area she would have said Christmas. He was working on getting better in that area. He was struggling in that area, sort of that side. Anything she would point out be like that was kind of the area he was working. I know you already kind of mentioned some of the walls that you but anything else.
Chris Bruno [00:42:42] For me personally or in my father and.
Jeff Zaugg [00:42:43] Journey in your father in.
Chris Bruno [00:42:44] Church? Yeah. Yeah. So I have a 21 year old right now. So ten years ago, he was 11 and. Right. It was right around that time that obviously some things were happening for him as he was entering middle school there in the barrel of puberty, you know, down the barrel of puberty and all that kind of stuff, that he was coming into his own and shifting. And I knew at that time that back in my story, I didn't have a dad who walked me through that passage from boy to man. And so I knew that I wanted to do something to to lead him through that passage from boy to man, so very intentionally crafted and created and a year long experience that involved my brothers and various men in our family and was very intentional over the course of. Like I said, a year culminated in some very intentional moments with him and and some other guys. So all that to say I was doing that ten years ago. Yeah. At the same time, I was having to wrestle with the lack of that in my own story. I was having to sit with the reality that I had had to find my own way. I had had to wander my own way into manhood. I had to figure things out. I had to just all from puberty and sex and all that kind of stuff. I had to figure out myself and I had to figure out how to live in the world. I didn't have a dad who taught me about courage or or excellent action or leadership or any of those kinds of things. And so I wanted something for my son that I didn't feel like I had myself. And so I had to do a lot of work in that area. So my wife would ten years ago, she'd be like, You are a piece of work. I was a mess back in all those ways because I knew what I wanted to instill in him and I had to go like some that mountain on my own and with some brothers before I could actually bring it to him.
Jeff Zaugg [00:44:39] But that mess sounds like a mess that would bring mostly good to your marriage and your kids. Did it bring harm to them, too? Because you like. Like it was mostly good?
Chris Bruno [00:44:47] Yeah. No. I'll put it this way. It. Had been bringing harm to them unawares. And I finally became aware of it and started to work on it. And I would say that the net result now is that it has been. I hope and pray that it has been a blessing. Yes.
Jeff Zaugg [00:45:03] You're not discouraging dads from going down that of examining their story. But my.
Chris Bruno [00:45:07] Goodness.
Jeff Zaugg [00:45:07] No. Let's be aware of as we enter it.
Chris Bruno [00:45:10] Yeah, Well, and and I'll say, too, like I used the word earlier, our stories leak and our stories leak. And we might think that we're doing well. We might think that we are the the top of the totem pole as far as killing it at work and killing it at home and killing it everywhere, killing it, that church. But our stories, the stories of pain, the stories of struggle, those stories of trauma, they will leak. And somewhere along the way it will catch up with us. And so I just want to encourage guys all over the place, no matter where you are in your man journey, no matter where you are in your dad journey, it's never too late to start. Yeah. Okay. Start today. Start doing this work today because the benefits, the family tree changing benefits will be for generations to come.
Jeff Zaugg [00:46:02] I want to add to it that it's never too late, but also some of the dads listening have a one year old and they could enter examination and store like they could begin this this restoring back to the right story, not the false one. Now instead of waiting so their their son or daughter is 11 and the gift of having that decade of lead time versus you you're the best. 11. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that would be the gift of Haley's shoes, the harder path. Because the path that we offer our kids. Yes. If we do so. Yes.
Chris Bruno [00:46:32] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that guide going down that river. I am so many times to learn the path. And if we can do that far beyond our kids, then that's so the so much the better. Probably the most that I am a counselor and probably the most inspirational guy that I've been able to work with was this I think he was about 20, 21 years old. He was just finishing up college. He was coming to the end of transitioning from, you know, like dorm life and all that kind of like, you know, into having a job. He had a girlfriend and he came to counseling not because anything was wrong, but because he knew that he he wanted to be the best version of himself.
Jeff Zaugg [00:47:16] Wow.
Chris Bruno [00:47:17] And he was not going to propose to this girlfriend until he'd done some serious story work in his life to heal his heart so that he could show up for her and then his future children in a way that he had not gotten from his dad.
Jeff Zaugg [00:47:32] That's that's the man that I pray for, for my four daughters who will do. But also, I mean, that's amazing. But dad's like the work, the choice that we're making, they're setting our kids up to not even I mean, not that they're not going to have to go take that step. I still mean if we can can raise a kids that are courageous enough to go have those hard conversations at that pivot points before they, you know, put a ring on a finger. Like, yeah, that's amazing.
Chris Bruno [00:47:58] And to all the dads out there, like again, I'm full of quotes, but trauma passes down through generations until someone has the courage to feel it. It's going to continue to pass down through generations until someone has the courage to feel it and to face it into and to process it. Let us be those dads. Let us be those guys who stop the generational pass down of trauma and it doesn't get passed down to. Now, that doesn't mean that we're going to be perfect, but it means that the overwhelming tidal wave of trauma that has been passed down for generation after generation, it stops here, right? You shall not pass. You do not go beyond me into my kids. As far as it depends on me. Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg [00:48:50] How do you pray for that? Courage. For you. For all these. You and me? Yeah.
Chris Bruno [00:48:54] Yeah. God. Father, our true father who wrote our true and right story. I pray for all of us right now who are listening, who are pondering, who are either put off or drawn towards by the conversation that we've had today. I pray right now, God, that you would instill a heart of courage. And we know that courage doesn't exist without first experiencing fear. And so we we face the fear of our stories. We face the fear of what we what we want to be and what we know that we're not. In order to have courage to step into that, would you fill us with a heart of courage? Would you be with us in the way that you designed us to be with one another? Thank you, Jesus. Amen.
Jeff Zaugg [00:49:48] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 352 with Chris Bruno. All the show notes, the conversation links, transcripts, the action steps are all going to be at dadawesome.org/podcast. Guys, I am so thankful for you guys taking time to lean in, listen and just your hearts to be dad. Awesome for your family. I'm praying for you guys and I can't wait to hear some of you leave me a voice message again. Look in the show notes for how to leave a voice message. Would love to hear from you. Encouragement ideas to make Dad awesome. More valuable stories of connection with your kids or just even follow up from specific things from today's episode. Can't wait to hear from you guys. Have a great week.
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· "We are the best father when we have our best brothers with us. We need those guys. Those are guys in my life and we need our brothers. And also we need someone else who's on the outside who's got some training, is a professional in some ways to come along side to create a safe space for a child to unfold."
· "We are heaps of undigested experience. When you have indigestion, there's something unwell about your body. So if there's undigested experience, there's something unwell about your soul and we need someone to come alongside us and to be with us and partner with us and talk through those things with us to digest the experience so that in that moment, we can make meaning in a way that won't be a traumatic meaning. It won't be one of those collapsed vows or walled off moments in life."
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